Ok, I will.
Thanks for the idea.
Do you think it should take THREE YEARS to then end up here?
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It won’t open in FF, Brave nor Edge at least not in a readable form. Not natively and not with a plugin. There’s a button with “open in Google Docs”, that is doing the loading thing but nothing happens and it keeps doing nothing. I can download the PDF and then open it with a reader but it’s SO messed up it’s slow AF and again, it shouldn’t need a reader.
The printable one is 15MB but it’s a frigging zip file so we then have to unzip that first which is then still a PDF that bring us nowhere closer because people aren’t interested in a poster, they’re interested in actually reading the stuff on their PC like a normal person, without needing Macs, Adobe scamware, dropboxes or other nonsense.
No one cares about
Info needs to be easily accessible, either in text like a wiki or a png or the likes because that is what works on every pc, on a tablet, even on your phone, on old PC’s, on a second monitor and while running 17 accounts. Keep It Simple Stupid.
There really is no need to swear here.
As I said to you four days ago I will be seriously considering (read: pretty much definitely …) uploading a JPG, PNG or similar format file for online only consumption with the release of the final version.
I think that’s a pretty poor comment, to be honest.
As I’m sure you’re aware, there are several hardware platforms that EVE players use and also a few software configurations (Windows, Mac, Linux etc). I will be aiming to make the final version of the chart accessible to as many players as possible, irrespective of their tech situation.
A bit rude and unnecessary.
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Why then, why not make one available sooner. That takes what, 90 seconds if you have access to the original.
No one cares. No one is interested in special snowflakes, special snowflake software, hardware or whatever. They’re interested in learning about the different play styles that EVE has to offer in an easy access, available, low effort, zero program requiring manner.
This isn’t about you, your mac, me or anything else. This is about helping newbies and giving them information that might help them advance, or even just stay, in the game. And so far it’s been 3 years where they’ve had none of that. Partly because the new one doesn’t work (or people simply refuse to use it) and partly because the old one doesn’t give all the info, we’re now in 2024 and according to the latest info we have available Abyssals don’t exist yet. let that sink in.
One of the core concepts within design. That took me 10 seconds to do and it didn’t need PDFs, dropboxes or anything else.
What a load of BS…
FFS… just make your own graph and stop trolling the OP with your bitter replies.
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The EvE O forums definitely have their fair share of trolling, but having read through this entire topic, I can’t say I’ve seen much here.
What I’ve seen is several people who are very passionate about their playstyles making sensible arguments about the wording and descriptions about some of the PVP careers. Have they been a bit aggressive in their arguments? Sure, but that doesn’t necessarily invalidate them nor does it make them trolls.
I constantly see PVE players criticizing various PVP play styles and when the PVP players argue back they are labelled trolls. Sometimes there is trolling but so much of the time it is just people unwilling to listen to a point of view they don’t agree with and therefore resort to calling people trolls so that they can be right and righteous in their own minds.
I’m saying all this as someone who has been primarily a PVE player for 13 years in EVE.
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Dude. WTF. The guy doesn’t work for you nor anybody here. They are doing this in their free time as a project.
Who TF are you to decide how long it should take them?!
The dude needs to drop their life and treat this like a full time job?! You gonna pay them? I am sure that would speed up the process up to your expectations.
How about this… since you know so well, maybe you can deliver one in 3 months from now, which will allow for easy addition of ever increasing number of activities whilst maintaining readability and linking to relevant sources, cuz EVE churns out more and more stuff for us to do all the time.
In the meantime the rest of us will be happy sharing the “outdated” version and waiting for the new one you or Mu’ad Diib bring out.
May the best Capsuleer win.
Time starts now. Go!
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Sure but THREE YEARS? Are you really sure you’re going to defend someone taking three years?
No. He stated that he would make one (which is awesome) and it’s fully ok to expect that to take time especially as a side project. But not 3 years.
Is actually relatively short but a decent time frame yes. Would it have been, say, double that it would still have been more than reasonable. Thing is I didn’t offer to make one because I know I’m not good at that stuff so it would take longer and it would suck, probably.
With that logic it’ll never come out and nothing ever gets done anywhere at all ever, by anyone. At some point you have to decide where the feature creep stops.
So you’re ok with newbies not knowing about things like Abyssals etc, a play style that got added… 6 years ago now. A play style way more in synch with people looking for a sort of dungeon experience, like in other MMO’s, which might help them do better, make more isk and perhaps actually stick around. (it’s not my personal favourite but that’s here nor there).
Perhaps you should just stick to copy pasting your spam ever so often (which you then get chastised for, for being exactly that: spam). PS: if you fly a solo Rifter in Low sec you want it to have range control as that is its main capability and since that’s a strategy many use there you need to copy that. No range control = you probably lose. PPS: stop flying that Thorax, it’s embarrassing.
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When I read this I did wonder whether it had been three years. So I just checked on a time/date, and technically speaking, from the time that I made the first post on this thread today is 2 years, 9 months and 25 days. So not actually as you phrase it @Aisha_Katalen , “THREE YEARS”.
Having said this, you’re right that it has taken much longer than I’d anticipated at the beginning of the project and I do realise that this may have been frustrating for some people, like you, who might be eagerly waiting for its completion.
All I can say here is sorry.
I could inject some words into the thread narrative like ‘caring responsibilities’, ‘mental health’, and so on but given that you and others have chosen to flame me in this channel several times over the last few days I don’t really want to share personal stuff here that might end up being used against me, no disrespect intended.*
In the absence of this, what I will do is talk about the physical mechanics of creating the chart which has been a significant driver in the time that it has taken to get to this point.
When I took the project on I decided very early on that I wasn’t going to do it unless I could make it better than what already existed, otherwise why try to fix something that wasn’t broken?
It’s not at all lost on me that without all the effort and hard work that @Altrue put in, creating this would have been very much harder - his chart is basically brilliant - which is why mine is very much a revision and I haven’t (and won’t be) changing his infographic architecture that much.
Because I started this chart with just a downloaded JPG available to me and wanted to create something that was vector-based and therefore infinitely scalable, I redrew the entire chart and every single element in Adobe Illustrator, which was a massive endeavour. As I stated in the post about the open beta release, at that point in time there were 5,273 different chart elements, 189 hyperlinks and creating all that did take rather a lot of time.
Having said all of this, I think it will be worth it when the chart comes out proper, eg: not in a pre-release beta format as this one is.
I think you make a very valid point here.
When the Viridian stuff was launched my heart did sink a little because although it is awesome stuff (just in case the GMs are listening!) the thought going through my head was, ‘Wow! Getting that all in in a lot of work’. And as @Dace_Cad pointed out, this isn’t my job and I’m doing this in my free time.
Having said this I do want to get at least Abysalls and Homefront ops on the page if I can before I launch the chart proper, along with some of the more useful suggestions that have been made since the beta release.
To address your point though, whatever happens after I have got those bits on the chart, I will release a final version 1 version of the chart and this will be in a mixture of formats as previously mentioned to maximise accessibility to the player base.
I hope that all makes sense.
* I am mindful here, and have been while I’ve been trying to be polite in the face of significant flaming, of the aphorism ‘In a world where you can be anything, be kind’. I can’t help thinking that if we all held this in our heads and hearts a little bit more, both in EVE and in real life, maybe then the world might be a nicer place, for us all to live and play in.
.
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Some real angry day drinkers polluting this thread. I’m sorry to see this happen to you Mu’ad Dib.
No suggestions from me. Just a hearty slap on the back for sticking with this project. I’ve been following it since your first post with much interest.
Well done.
Mr Epeen 
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Thanks. Haters are going to hate … life is way too short to let them ruin your day … as I stated earlier …
To be honest, the support and encouragement of rank-and-file players like you is all I need to keep me perked up. Awesome stuff. Fly safe my friend.
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@Mu_ad_Diib Keep up the good work, sir !
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Your response depicted how very little you understood my sentences as a whole, and instead nit-picked snippets out of context, besides the bits about which there was no argument and I already agreed with, the more prominent example:
… when in context I said:
Obviously nothing would ever launch if creators waited for the world to stop spinning so they can put out content which will never be outdated. It is clear you understood that much. This was never argued.
What most (forward thinking and considerate) creators will do though (such as with most apps/web/software design and development, architecture, engineering, I mean pretty much any scalable sector) is make sure that once they release their content, it can continue to be built upon instead of becoming obsolete, such as a piece of paper, video, or image with information which gets passed around for a while until people realize there is an updated version which was released a year ago and we’ve been watching some guy on YouTube fit 4 Warp Core Stabs on his fitting (funnily enough, like what happens with a lot of unscalable content such as the great image this project in question is based on!).
I imagine an interactive file, such as the one Mu_ad_Diib is working on, once launched and hopefully hosted online, will allow for any new content to be added (imagine a Google Doc shared with View Only access) maintaining the source link constantly updated and thus prevent any outdated versions to be shared (since the link would always direct to the constantly updated file).
^-By the way, @Mu_ad_Diib , I don’t intend to tell you how to do your stuff, just a suggestion if not already the idea of the file, in which case you are leaving me hanging on this whole wall of text I spent on it. 
Anyway, considering there is nothing in your response which effectively addressed mine, I am not surprised you resorted to Ad Hominem:
So I will entertain yours with some of my own, except it won’t be targeted at you:
- Perhaps answering (very, very often the same reoccurring) questions in Rookie Chat for 5 years and not having copy-pasta to answer would better suit a Capsuleer who likes spending more of their time typing the same message over and over and overlook how it could possibly be optimized, or just doesn’t think about how to maximize their efficiency. Of course, that is considering they actually spend any time doing that.
- Perhaps more narrow minded Capsuleers would believe that a Ship can only do one thing and it must be done so always. They could probably never consider that having killed vastly more Ships while piloting my Rifter than the amount of Rifters I’ve lost could possibly be a testament to how a Ship might be fitted for a specific purpose, succeed at that, then be fitted differently for a different purpose.
- Perhaps some Capsuleers who don’t experience creative thinking, experimentation, or fun in EVE, would find it difficult to understand that sometimes fitting a Thorax in an obviously unconventional manner, might be just a thing to do. And a more entitled Capsuleer might find it befitting to tell others what they must stop flying. And a more judgmental or intolerant Capsuleer might feel embarrassed when others play EVE however they flipping like to.
Regrettably, you have yet to make enough of an impression on me to justify spending any more time to research you as you did me (I suppose I should be flattered!) besides responding to this, which I wouldn’t have done anyways if you hadn’t given me the platform to both: deliver another potential suggestion to OP, and provide some tips to any Capsuleers who relate to the 3 points above.
Furthermore, I suggest refraining from derailing this post any further, for the sake of everyone here, maybe especially yourself! But of course, do as you wish. I can’t tell you what to do. I can just choose to no longer entertain any future disruptive behavior.
Be well, and don’t be afraid of experimenting or (more relevant to the topic) working hard to do something right instead of delivering feces with your name signed on it! (= an encouragement for OP to take as long as they need, coming from another graphic designer who knows the pressure from clients to deliver content whilst touching on the unobtainable all-three-at-once 3 corners of the triangle: Cheap, Fast, and High Quality)
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Translation: “I made this all up just to create a story that suits my needs, please be true or I’ll look real dumb”.
If you look at what exists today it leaves no real room for expansion, you can see that if you had taken a look at it which, is now obvious, you haven’t. I HOPE it does because that would make sense (and would add a ton of extra design and explain, to a degree, why it all takes so long) but I’m not seeing any signs of it.
So far even Abbyssals haven’t been added in yet, it’s in the planning… Let that sink in. You’d know this if you had taken a look at it which, is now obvious, you haven’t.
Yes sure, even ISD do this and it makes sense but that is not what you’re doing, you’re pasting generalisations. The fact that people (not me btw, just to point that out) called you out on this shows that they’re not relevant answers to existing questions, they’re more like soapbox proclamations, people noticed and got tired of it.
Your purpose for a solo rifter pvp fit in low sec is to get solo kills in low sec, what you are using is a null sec fit. It works in null because almost no one scram kites unlike low sec. Doesn’t mean you can’t get kills, DOES mean that you don’t know what you are doing.
All you’ve done is come to the defence of someone who got attacked and I understand that, it’s not like I enjoy this. It’s just that I’m very angry that after 3 years (no one cares if it’s 2.9 and even then it’s not done yet so who knows how long this is going to take) we’re still not any further. You can not like me for being angry about that which is completely fine but at some point one has to deliver on one’s promises especially if this concerns other people, because then it’s a responsibility. Woe is me for taking responsibilities to others kinda serious.
All good mate. No worries.
Don’t be angry. Imagine the 2 years you lived anger free on the matter until you seemed to start doing so:
(yes, I also noticed your positive input message about 6 months before that, don’t blame me for not doing more of an effort in reading a 3 year long thread which gathered a boost of popularity in recent days due to being linked in the Launcher)
I won’t be addressing any of the off-topic matters you bring forth in this last response I am replying to here, but feel free to contact me in-game so we can chat if you’d like to have a healthy one-on-one conversation to clarify your many misconceptions about me, not that I should be deemed worth the while, just your reoccurring personal comments would show otherwise, unless all you want to do is spew.
I will try to keep this simple.
The first thing I did was check out the files.
I also read the readme first as OP suggested.
It would be silly for me to comment and not even know what I am talking about.
After having looked over the content and with experience in the industry, I saw no reason for the content to not be able to be hosted in a manner which keeps it current and updated. It is not clear to me if it is Mu’ad Diib’s intention or in their consideration to do so (since although obvious to me, I cannot know what they are considering), so I suggested it, in a manner which some as messed up as myself might find amusing, whilst retorting to you.
Also, someone balancing a job, personal life, time spent in EVE Online, and who knows what other factors (none of anyone’s business), might have someone take a rather long time to devote to a somewhat large scale and unpaid personal endeavor, I mean, did you see the amount of links the guy had to gather whilst making sure they are on par? If it has taken me to compile the material I have, in the format I have it, and be as effective as it is, I can only imagine how lucky we are to be at “Beta” stage.
Having expectations from someone to deliver such a project within what would otherwise be a sensible amount of time, is still rather inconsiderate of the above (and maybe even more) factors.
It would be quite unreasonable for me to come here suddenly pushing added responsibility of deadlines on someone who is doing something on a personal, unpaid, 0-self ambition challenge, who made a post to gather (as the ReadMe states) “Constructive Criticism”, then was blasted to the masses by what is likely an acknowledgment from CCP in their pushed-to-everyone Community Beat for the 5th of January.
I mean, OP has even said:
So, yes
very very “woe”.
And repeating:
over and over (sorry, I stopped counting after 3 of those) really shows how you aren’t really taking anything written in the content and being said here in the forums to heart. Not even the OP’s post, nor anything being said by others, nor my responses to you.
I mean. It feels kind of a waste of time to be writing this.
Maybe you…
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where’s the follow up on it?
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BTW, glad to see you getting such positive attention, even if people are seeing a poor shadow of what it looks like fully blown up due to the rasterization they’re experiencing.
My attempts to HTML-ize this document have failed due to the poor tooling in my current website wckg.net. I have an experimental section but it’s just too much work to map it. I’m doing too much automatic wiki stuff and it just looks bad.
I think this is best done in a site.
As you can see, I already have large chunks of this content broken up. I could expand this further as well. And I have all the content written out, properly, not AI driven. 
Let me know if you think other pages that would be useful. Or if you want hosting via a pdf hosted google doc page.
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@Altrue, I was just going through the thread to pick up on the snagging tasks that I need to do and I realised that you wrote to me in December and I didn’t reply. My apologies for this, I’m not sure how I missed replying (but here goes …).
No apology required, real life happens!
No worries. That card will be pulled shortly.
I’m not sure that I’d wholly agree with exactly what you’re suggesting here, although I do think that you’re right, the text is overly wordy so I’m going to look at making this shorter and more succinct.
You’re absolutely right, out-of-game activities don’t involve ISK. However because, on the chart, there is a slight blur between the in and out of game activities, and because some of these out-of-game activities might involve real life costs (eg: photocopying flyers to stick up in the meet-up venue) I thought I ought to reflect this in the cost indicators. I hope that makes sense.
Whilst I do understand the point that you’re making here, modern text style guides suggest that acronyms should be capitalised and without periods between letters (for example Guardian Style Guide). I’d accept that there are differences between British and American English here but I’m a Brit so I’m going to go for the version that I’m most familiar with.
I’m don’t know much about this. I found a CCP News article on Lancers but this seems to be more about the ships rather than a specific activity. I’m not adverse to the idea of including a specific activity involving a specific class of ship as such, but if you could flesh out what you think the card should say and where it ought to be in the chart, I’d be very grateful.
This sounds like a good idea to me.
Maybe it could read < HIGH RISK HAULING > with the body text < Use freighters to move goods through dangerous areas of space like Zarzakh, Thera and wormhole systems >
What do you think?
Nice idea. I’d not come across Wingspan before now but I had heard of Tripwire. Either way, I think mapping and selling wormhole data probably ought to be in there. My thought would be to position the card between the Wormhole Mapping and Exploration cards in the Wormhole spine.
Maybe it could read < Sell Wormhole Map Data > with the body text < Locate and then sell wormholes location data to other pilots >
What do you think?
Absolutely. The only thing I’m not 100% sure of here is what the card or cards for Homefront Ops ought to read (still mulling this over …) so I’d welcome any input that you might have!
Hmmm. I’m not sure how this might be different from the existing card that sits at the top of the RATTING spine: < PIRATE BASE DESTRUCTION > < Income from bounties, loot, salvage, mission rewards and LP. Start with level 1, up to level 48 >
What are your thoughts here?
Could you flesh out your thoughts here a little please?
Personally I thought it was okay, and like I said here, I did check the contrast via a visual disabilities app that I use for stuff like this and it did seem okay to me. Having said this several people have now mentioned this so I might do some kind of test with darker greys to see if I can make this a bit better on the final version.
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