I don’t know what is a two tier system.
If you refer to the amount of people dedicated to security, 3 people is not enough.
if the ninja harvesters are using T1 fit venture, you need to kill him with one alt, then undock it from the station to move concord, then log your other alt instead for the next.
Meanwhile the gankee just boards the next venture in the station or the orca and comes back. In order to gank him again constantly, you need like 5 toons for one of his toons.
Because you can’t know it for sure.
And because to reduce it by a value, you have to reduce YOURS by a lot more.
The solution to your 17 people issue is make friends…
Thats what this game is all about. If you as a group are having issues with 10 Orcas then get the locals of the system to band together and push them off as soon as they land.3
Highsec moon mining was terribly though of from start. It grants too much ore, ore can be stolen easily and the only thing you can do about it is suicide ganking which is nonsense. Even if the corp that owns refinery had the alts to do do suicide gank (and doing it without alt is just stupidity as this would be win for the “ninja-miners” as they get killrights against characters that actually do things in space) and they would actually be able to pull it off successfully (which is extremely hard as CODE. claims and only the most skilled players can do it) it is still a lost unless it was just one solo ninja-miner. If it was corp/multiboxer fleet you were better off mining as by the time you prepare for the gank they already miner three times the cost of that retriever or covetor. And that would be silly “ninja-miner” most of them using procurer, skiff or orca which well fitted will be impossible to gank for anyone who cannot multibox 20 accounts or corp that cannot bring 20 real players into t2 catalysts a t2 thrashers (and even then without experiences this will never work for them even if they field the required dps, one of those players forgets to change his green safety or will target ally and gank fails - afterall those who are proficient in pvp or ganking rarely mine and if they do they are guess what - “ninja-mining”).
This is just stupid concept and overally moon mining is so profitable that it completely kills lowsec belt mining. Haven’t seen there anyone in ages (and if so it was (most likely bait) rorqual).
Argumenting that ninja-mining is a risk or tradeoff to moon mining profitability is wrong. The ore does not disappear, the ore just gets redistributed between different players but stays in the system.
Also, hiring gankers won’t work. CODE. doesn’t work for anyone, they will not take such request and will laugh at you and mock you. Smaller gankers might help for a good reward but smaller gankers will not be able to handle tanked procurer, skiff or orca so in the end there is very little to do.
Wardec is rarely a possibility either, with the nerfs to wardecs you cannot wardec those without a structure. And smart ninja-miner will stay in npc corp or will not have a structure to avoid that. Also, even if the ninja-miner is wardec-able and you wardec him, he will be able to mine the ore that spawned that day without any problem because of 24h preparation time. After that he moves to different region, ninja-mining someone else’s belt, hunting him will be waste of time. Wardec must come from bigger pvp groups such as PIRATE (did other merc groups just died out with wardec changes?) to have any effect.
@Anderson_Geten you should see now clearly that this forum is full of players who likes stupid and annoying mechanics. Even if there are players who would agree with you they will not bother even post because of this and these players toxicity and loudness. Just give up. CCP might eventually change this in few years, but posting on forums will not achieve anything, your best bet is CMS I guess. I recommend to not own refinery and ninja-mine yourself. It costs nothing, it has no extra risks as mining “your own moon asteroids”.
Majority of the vocal posters here would not dare to run a single mining cycle in a venture if they get a suspect for it. Hence why they cannot acknowledge it is a problem. Ninja-mining moon ore is not a thing in lowsec, guess why?
That the rules do not apply equally to two different groups of people arbitrarily.
But you cant know for sure that the gankers arent being played in the same way as the miners, only they like to having mining alts instead of ganking alts.
You assume zero base income about one group while stating anything sub-optimal for the other is a loss.
If the rules apply to both equally then the second party (the ninjas) stand to lose exactly as much as the first party (krabs).
You just choose to apply a rule to one but not the other. Is there a reason for this?
What rules are you talking about ? The rule that states that the athanor corp can be wardecced and not the ninja corp ?
Lol.
I actually don’t care about what happens to moon mining. I made my math, realized it’s a very bad activity, even before the ninja miners.
I know those forums are full of trolls. Not a reason to not call them as liars when they are.
I have no illusion about what CCP is gonna do : nothing. People will eventually understand that the value of moon mining is overrated and will give up the structure management, for something less stressing like mining in roid/ice belt.
Ninja harvester will stop because there won’t be anything to ninja harvest. Then some people will restart their athanor maybe for monthly corp activity, until ninja harvester come again.
The only fix that will happen is that ninja harvester will kill themselves, as an OP activity that relies on preying on the other without any risk.
And idiots will still claim “there is no issue because there can’t be any issue”, because they can’t have a constructive argument.
The rules you are applying to determining the cost or loss factors involved. You are applying a loss of income due to various factors to one party and not the other.
The full sentence is “arent being played in the same way as the miners”. Their player is using them differently for their income.
Two Athanors, with timers in different TZs are in a system. Both have 5 characters and one player available. Athanor 1’s crew mine their rocks and, once Athanor 2’s time comes, three of Athanor 1’s crew begin ninja mining from Athanor 2’s field.
Who is losing income and who is operating at no cost or loss?
By what percentage might the income of Athanor 2 either improve or decline if they apply 5 gank alts for a small period of time?
And, more importantly by what percentage might the income of Athanor 1 change if they didnt ninja mine?
Now, if the data doesnt exist to even theorise these factors, thats fine, but it renders this part of the discussion moot.
What we’re talking about is the cost for the person who makes a choice. The cost for the ninja gankers is irrelevant, mainly because the perception of cost varies too much from one person to another.
And what if he even loses more than I do ? Nothing. I still am at loss. So there is no point in the ninja loss, especially when they cost so much to the owner team compared to what they gain from doing it.
it only declines, by the part of the alts used compared to the total number of toons used. so if you had 10 characters it is reduced by 50%.
Meanwhile the income of group 1 is reduced by ONE harvester.
The fact that there are two athanors is irrelevant.
So group 1 is operating at 0 cost.
Same for the difference in income of group 1.
By that measure there is no point doing anything other than whatever activity is the optimal isk generator as anything is that -whatever percent lost in opportunity.
Effectively the Athanor miners lose regardless of what they do, as if that task isnt optimal, they lose the time doing moon mining instead.
This is what I mean by a two tier system. Your consideration of two otherwise identical groups is affected by your opinion of one of their possible activities.
Sure you can do whatever you want, like suicide your ships as much as you want.
But don’t claim that the game is balanced because you can suicide your ships.
Depends on the time frame you are considering.
Yes if you look at raw yield anything that is not mining is suboptimal.
If you look at the chunk mining time, if the ninja were suspect it may be worth it to shoot them, eg just to make them warp off. Or even to loot them and take a part of the moon they mined. But if that’s at the price of 5 toons not mining,k no it’s definitely not worth it.
Because the ninja group can’t be wardecced and does not have to invest, and operate the structure.
This is the cost and risk we are talking about.
The cost and risk of mining is the same.
Neither do the miners.
Why dec the structure if its giving free milk, unless you want to add the factor of potential system control.
The assumption is that the ninjas dont have their own station to fuel I feel, when infact operating one and feeding on others when yours is doing its thing would be better for your profits.
And this is something any group can do. So by not doing it, the ones who only mone their own operate at a loss by not doing it.
Ok I can buy that, though it is the same cost/risk as any highsec structure, mitaged for usefulness, ownership etc.
But it still works on the assumption the ninjas arent operating one.
Anyway, let me get this straight;
Miners pay for station, fuel etc, and live with the risk of losing station. We assume they pay for fleet, even if in an undeccable corp.
Ninjers pay for fleet, but no other obvious assets.
Miners can pay further to gank to dissuade attack.
Then I need to ask; what kind of profit margins exist on mooning, and do you think that risk of loss from player action should or should not be tied to the projected profit margin of activities, in order to set the activity (moon mining in high sec) at a particular level compared to other activities?
I already wrote about the real value of the moon : you get at max less than two asteroid belts volume per week, worth at most 42% more than veldspar in raw yield value.
So if you have that belt with spod popping for nothing it’s definitely better than a normal belt.
However If for that you have to pay 1B isk (without rigs otherwise it’s 2b5) plus the 120M/month of fuel (without the logistic but the logistic can be made while moving the ore) plus 35M/month for the processing module( to compress the ore, activation cost 2 days instead of 7) and it will eventually be wardeced and destroy for reasons.
AND you HAVE to be there at the moment it spawns otherwise you lose one week of pulling it.
Then definitely it’s worth less than mining ice belts or even just mining asteroid belts.
