From the position of the salvager, they are participating in invasion content.
If it turns you suspect. It would likely stop almost overnight like ninja-looting.
It’s a lie to say these people who want suspect flags for this or that, are looking for pvp. The OP isn’t looking for pvp. The miners that want ninja miners to go suspect aren’t looking for pvp.
They are looking for a deterrent or a way to add more risk.
The people asking for salvagers to go suspect obviously.
Two players can have a salvage contest right now. But the OP wants the other person to become a GLOBAL TARGET. Not because he wants to fight him, but because he wants everyone else to. What is more carebear than that?
Historically, the suspect flag has not added content, nor more pvp. It is a pretty good deterrent though.
Your reasoning is sound - I think it comes down to “weight” of the arguments. In my opinion, I feel the following argument carries the most weight that ultimately tips the scales in favor of suspect flags: If you want the phat lewt, be willing to fight for it - if you’re too cowardly to fight for it, you don’t deserve it (whether or not the wreck owner is the one who would attack you or not - it’s the principle of the thing).
Ninja salvagers too cowardly to own up to the consequences of their actions can find some other ways to krab more safely. If the market were to experience a shortage of stock due to drop in ninja salvaging, this is not necessarily a bad thing - it could in fact be healthy for the economy (and it would also increase the relative value of salvage scored by wreck owners)
One can easily flip these words around to apply to entitled salvagers and you know it.
This is why I proposed a 5 minute window, after which wrecks become abandoned and free for all. Both loot and salvage.
This allows for the clean up crew professions to continue, while presenting risk for the “thieves” who take advantage of the agro rules to be safe while salvaging in site.
It doesn’t make it impossible though as the PvE runners still have to engage them for that risk to become important, and the PvE runners also have to bring their salvaged with them exposing the salvaged to potential risk in the site also.
To me this strikes a good middle ground providing a path for defending your salvage but only if you are actually collecting it on the spot.
Ninja looting is already in the bin after crimewatch 2.0.
Heard from TEARS lately?
I felt the suspect flag was the right thing to do when it was first proposed. But didn’t expect it to have such an effect. For people to just stop.
Then don’t think of the words. Think of what happens if salvaging causes suspect. An activity worth keeping, and of no real threat to anyone, gets a huge nerf.
The OP, and many others, are still doing these sites despite ninja-salvaging. So it’s obviously still worth it. He just wants MOAR.
It’s the exact sentiment that lead to a stagnant game. Farmers want more. More isk/hour. More entitlement. More privilege. At the expense of those going against the typical MMO grain.
I understand the logic of the otherside. It just doesn’t lead to a fun, opportunistic game.
Nor does risk free salvaging. *
I know plenty who quit the content week 1 because of that.
Hence why I proposed a middle ground which also increases opportunities to steal loot without going suspect if they aren’t fast about getting it themselves.
Risk free as in the same or even less risk than the people in combat ships doing the hard work to create the wreck to start with. Obviously nothing in EVE other than PD is risk free.
Part of the problem with a “middle ground” is that there are two timers involved (salvage legality and loot legality before turning blue for abandoned), and this is somewhat complex and hard to convey (cluttered at best). It is simpler to use the same legality mechanic for both: the pilot who owns the wreck owns both the salvage and the loot.
Wrecks never turn blue on their own - they just age out of the system at 2 hours after creation.
I would agree that having a uniform timer to abandoned state for wrecks is great regarding both loot and salvage states, if a salvage timer for abandonment is implemented. I’m Not sure how it would be able to distinguish jetcans resulting from salvaged but unlooted wrecks, though, without interfering with manually created jetcan mechanics (which I would NOT support ever getting turned blue without player action to release).
No don’t change anything.
Your only complaining now because it’s worth something.
How about you salvage faster ? Have a dedicated pilot for salvaging ?
Many options. Rather than trying to get something changed because you now don’t like it because now it’s worth something.
I am suggesting the same mechanic for both. I am suggesting loot mechanics actually become less protective of people’s loot.
@Mkikaden_Tiragen What regular use situation of jetcans requires more than 5 minutes of legal ownership? I’m not against jet cans not counting the same as wrecks. I’m just curious what use cases that actually still happen on any kind of regular basis you think exist.
Jetcan mining is a very common mechanic for mining fleets and individuals, leveraging a hauler alt to empty the cans periodically. It allows for cheap ships to be used (reducing gank risk) without forcing constant return to a station to unload. It already is at risk for suspect baiting; upping the risk profile by having the cans abandon automatically would probably kill the style of play since it’s usually more than a 5 minute loop for the haulers.
EDIT: there is also intentional deployment of jetcans to bait people into going suspect, but I don’t know much about the frequency of that or how much jetcans are used vs deployable containers.
I believe jet can mining almost totally died out several years ago with the new barges. It does get used for orcas to tractor it in by some fleets but a 5 minute timer would be more than sufficient for that.
My challenge here would be to find multiple examples of it on the same day. If it really is common it should be easy to find, but there are regular complaints here on the forums no one does it so you can’t steal ore from others, which makes me doubt it is common.
Literally, my corp/alliance/coalition does it every day in mining fleets that cross a couple systems. Some thieves not having luck finding targets does not mean it no longer happens.
So what you are telling me is that your Corp doesn’t use a boosting orca to hold the ore in the mean time for an entire fleet?
That seems very… inefficient to say the least.
Boy oh boy, you guys are a bunch of greedy carebears. “I blew up a rat, all the lootz is mine!” It is just junk in space. Why would it be yours, any more than an asteroid is yours, or a moon rock?
The whole point of Eve is to interact with other players. Be happy that the containers generate the suspect flag - that was already a nice gift from CCP to you money-grubbing, selfish hoarders.
Suspect flagging enables PVP interaction that couldn’t happen before without being CONCORDed - doesn’t prevent anyone from grabbing the salvage.
Regarding jet cans: they’re not a mechanic that need to be touched. The death of jetcanning (outside of niche situations like Orca tractoring) is largely organic: better alternatives have arisen rather than the mechanics being nerfed. Whatever changes arise from this discussion, they need not affect jet cans (which can’t be salvaged anyway, but theft is unambiguous).
- doesn’t prevent anyone from grabbing the salvage.