A ex-triangle who’s gone on to play a large role in the capture of State goals is comparable to a current triangle who’s attacking State facilities?
Lay off the mindflood. Or is it death glow?
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Here, let me edit your own words to clarify:
Yeah, I think there’s cause for concern about both, but more importantly, I think it’s ironic enough for Elsebeth to find the outrage humorous, which is what was actually said.
Honestly, I’m still not convinced Jouhinen isn’t a stalking horse for some Provist capsuleer. Limited combat history, no security status drift, and always seems to be in support operations. The pattern of forum activity supports that.
Well it turns out a lot of CONCORD derived security standings are set through combat records and blood being spilled, and guess what? I’m not a fighter. I don’t like the idea of directly killing people, unlike many of you. So yeah, shame on me for not being willing to cut down swaths of baselines just to give you more data to formulate your opinion.
And are you so surprised I support State operations? I was born in the State, you know. I’m still loyal to my home and people, I just prefer to operate in my own way.
Galnet Source: Caldari State achieves victory in Triglavian Relay Research
Well, whatever they’re trying to do, it clearly failed. Unless it’s just against the Gallente, in which case, it worked beyond their wildest expectations.
What’s controversial about ARC is usually more in the nature of radical neutrality than really taking sides for and against.
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I disagree, Jenneth-haani. The Servant Sisters are radically neutral. ARC is self-serving under a pretense of neutrality.
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I would actually contest that point of view, becaue neutrality can’t be radical, it’s just… neutrality. What can be radical is the hostility and we actually can attest that on example of makotism.
Technically, when you’re neutral you can work with everyone as long as your interests align. But when your opponent on the offer of collaboration descends into hateful rants with groundless accusations to degree of outright slanders (for which I have plenty of evidences), you cannot speak about neutrality anymore.
Such abrupt hostile and irrational behavior reflects underlying ideals that the person have in order to erect these levels of hatred - against those, who, according to the person in question, “violates” these ideals. Which implies having a certain operational doctrine which is clearly having an anti-neutral stance. That doctrine - since the person avoids actually collaborative efforts - have a deeply individualistic and egoistic core, which is characteristic typically for gallentean-like societies and counter-profitable abominations they breed.
The seeming neutrality cuts supervising ideals (for example on my own primer, such supervising ideals are ideals of Caldari State, and through service to the State I am obliged to follow a certain doctrine that the State imposes on me, whether I agree to it or not - but eventually I will have to adjust my viewpoints to match the State), and the only ideals of makotism are sprouting from the person who shows that quasi-neutrality. And in this case we clearly can see that that person doesn’t actually sees everyone as neutral, grey and potential for collaboration, but rather openly differentiates people on red and blue, or friends or foes - based on subjectively personal viewpoints, which can come down to simple formula “if the person does what I want, they’re blue, if they aren’t - they are enemies”.
Such behavior can be attributed to other capsuleers as well who might claim their own souvereignty and pseudo-independence, thus emanating their ideals as projection of their ego and their personal desires, rather than striving for something greater or helping a certain other person or a group.
Respectfully, sir, I can’t agree. The largest difference I see is that the Servant Sisters usually work quietly. If they were more visible or more combative, they’d likely be more controversial.
I’ve worked alongside ARC for many years, from Drifter hives to the Kyonoke Inquest to the Triglavians and the run-up to war. I clocked a lot of hours at their sides.
To some degree ARC’s always been a little roguish, in the sense of answering to no single master, and while it’s worked with CONCORD it’s also chafed at being treated (as it often has) as a meddlesome irritant rather than as a partner, junior or otherwise. It’s also been more open to members of, ah, more suspect entities than some, including myself, have been fully comfortable with. (Sorry, Evi.) But working with the odd kybernaut to gain a greater understanding of the Collective is really just a continuance of that same practice.
As is employing the resulting insight to try to strengthen our position relative to those same entities. Not merely its own; ours.
This most recent chapter has somewhat pitted those who seek knowledge for all against state (including State) actors seeking to hoard secrets, and I myself have had to back off involvement due to my own conflicting loyalties. But ARC’s conduct has been in tune with its stated goals and priorities.
I’m sure ego is in there somewhere also, of course. A long history of success will do that to anyone, probably, and it’s not hard to imagine such an entity becoming something actively and aggressively harmful.
That works at just about every level, though. I know the people leading ARC; of my time in space I’ve spent probably more alongside them than anybody other than Directrix Phonaga herself.
I trust their motives. I do. For the most part I share them; the acts of investigation and exploration are how we expand our understanding of the world. Through knowledge, we gain insight; through insight, we can resolve the problems posed.
If that is unacceptable, well, I’m an exile already after all.
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Your words are appreciated, Jenneth-haani. Certainly, I have been at times guilty of acting with too much ego, and far too outspokenly. I can only hope that I have not made claims beyond our abilities, nor spoken too poorly of others, save perhaps those who’ve invited it through their own deeds.
Still, those who would wish to understand the philosophy underpinning my work, or the work of any pilot working within or alongside the Consortium would surely do best to simply ask. I’d recommend it outside a public venue, so that there is less concern about the scoring of points.
All I’d ask in turn is that such a conversation be entered into without preconception, and with a willingness to confront personal bias.
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The Servant Sisters follow their own religious way. CONCORD is a interstellar police force bound by treaties and regulations. In theory it serves the governments of the stellar signatories.
Whom do ARC serve? Neither a religion, nor a state, nor any people, nor any treaty. Perhaps one might reply, “No, they serve all” - and this is pure gas. To serve all is to serve none - to serve none, inevitably, to serve oneself.
Perhaps a traitor like Priano might rejoin that ARC serves an ill-defined creed of scientific progress and knowledge. To this I wish to make two points:
Firstly, that nothing I have ever seen ARC do is in any way “scientific” or in any way related to research. As of late, they have trespassed across a naval cordon to measure lightning flashes in a cloud and presented a series of simple linear graphs which would be questionable even as a creche science project. They then bombed a Collective shipyard, attempted to spy on State secrets, then broke another naval cordon to steal a trifling amount of data caches (Priano neglects, of course, to mention the extremely small size of the package she has delivered) and loudly pass them off to the SoCT. Perhaps they might attempt to do something vaguely scientific with them, but what, no one knows.
Secondly, that the stated ideals of ARC are vague enough to be almost indistinguishable from the simple decency of every pilot who is not a raving psychotic.
That is: they are platitudes. They are framed as such because the real goal of ARC is its own glory, fame, and self-aggrandizement. They flit from place to place, trampling on lives and breaking rules, accomplishing very little impact, but announcing themselves loudly and then - awaiting applause.
To call ARC a “partner” to CONCORD is insulting. It is capsuleer hubris of the highest order. That is why CONCORD is understandably dismissive of this prancing pretender.
I do believe there are many capsuleers of a sincere mind who have been “pulled in” to serving these charlatans. And in that category I do place you, Jenneth-haani, because I know from personal experience that you do have a good heart, and in this case I do not judge you by the company you keep.
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I am, it appears, not alone in acting with too much ego, and being outspoken in my viewpoints.
Perhaps even I overstate my own vices, compared to those same vices as demonstrated by others.
Suzaku, you start with bias seemingly bordering on obsessive hatred, and then build it up with wordplay and tautologies to try to make it more than that. You’re falling into the trap of so many new capsuleers. I’d recommend examination before you lose yourself to it.
You make no attempt to address the substance of the criticism. You are disingenuous to call your flaw being “outspoken”. To be outspoken for a good cause is laudable, to be a hypocrite is not.
However, I am glad to see you taking a tiny step toward humility. You have indeed acted with braggadocio and attempted to humilate the loyalists of your own people.
But in honesty, I still hold out hope you will recover your honor. You play with treason, but you are not yet beyond the pale. The shift in tone does not escape my notice.
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Perhaps one might reply, “No, they serve all,” sir, but, that one would not be me.
It’s pretty safe to say ARC doesn’t serve the Drifters, the Collective, or Sansha’s Nation (Evi’s presence notwithstanding). Actually I’m not sure I’d say they “serve” anybody.
In general, sir, I try to avoid making harsh judgments of people (or, certainly, standing too steadfastly by those judgments). First and foremost (like ARC), I want to understand, want to see how things work and why. Passing judgment mostly just gets in the way.
A dedicated scholar “serves” the cause of knowledge-- their own and others’ (if only because those others can contribute to the scholar’s own in turn). We long to see truth. Collaboration is the norm, national loyalty a corruptive force that can interfere in that free exchange. ARC’s approach is to offer enough to all that it’s better to set aside personal and even national animosities and work together for mutual benefit.
That benefit’s variable, but it beats being left out, and the call’s not a close one. I’ve flown alongside pilots from U’K, the independent alliances, Sansha’s Nation, even the kybernauts-- all to serve ARC’s ends, the directrix’s (thus the Empire’s, vicariously), and my own. Through this I’ve learned a great deal and collected a huge cache of wonders I hope some day to understand and even find a use for.
(Drifter elements are perhaps at present the cluster’s most-alarming, least-useful objects. At least to us.)
(It’s worth noting that even Lord-Consort Newelle has flown these missions.)
I was personally involved in like half of those horrors you lay at ARC’s door. I participated with open eyes, and reject forthrightly the notion that I am deceived. I’ve been here too long, and prize the insights gained too highly, to disclaim their acts. If you judge them, I, also, am to blame.
You name me Jenneth-haani, but it’s been a long time since I really felt at home in the State. In truth, while LUMEN is my home, I claim no national loyalty. The only duty I recognize is a personal one, a binding oath. So perhaps I, also, am a traitor. I’m sure Ms. Kim would say so.
If ARC is arrogant, then so, too, am I.
What I might suggest, sir, is that the next time ARC hosts a Drifter hive fleet, which it does from time to time to check for changes in the hives, you come with us. Such fleets are open to all, though the ship requirements can be tight (can you fly a Confessor?).
Security measures are built into the operation’s structure, so there’s little risk of treachery from any side. And it’s paying work, in ISK, elements, or both.
It would be an opportunity to see what ARC, at its heart, is about-- and to see some things no other group in New Eden easily does.
No treason required.
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I was personally involved in like half of those horrors you lay at ARC’s door. I participated with open eyes, and reject forthrightly the notion that I am deceived. I’ve been here too long, and prize the insights gained too highly, to disclaim their acts. If you judge them, I, also, am to blame.
So be it.
You are absolutely right, of course they can. A murderer and child-molester can also be a great scientist and dinner companion. However, if you do invite him over for dinner to talk science, you’d better have a pretty good reason for doing so, and do have to explain yourself to the neighbours.
Of course, it might have been an undercover agent as well. In that case, his cover seems to be blown.
Thank you, sir.
They didn’t seem too dismissive of ARC during that whole Kyonoke-on-a-HS-Keepstar incident. But, you know, we capsuleers tend to vacillate between long memories of personal grievance and short-attention spans to anything we didn’t personally witness.
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Sometimes autotranslators have problems with multilingual people, just saying. It’s not uncommon in the State for people being fluent in large numbers of foreign languages and own dialects with amount of education our children are getting through rigorous corporation-sponsored upbringing programs, which are undoubtlfully the best in the Cluster. When you think in one language, which you take sentence structure from, but use dictionary from second language with occasional inclusion of words from third, it creates very heavy load on the translators and surely some words or terms can come out untranslated.
Hey, wait a minute.
@Remilia_Malitia , you were at Niarja?