Ship physics related to bumping don't seem to reflect actual IRL physics

[pRyodon]

I read this entire thread…

Ship bumping

However, I did not notice this issue mentioned… and the topic is closed so I cannot reply there.

I was in an Orca which was being bumped by a Stabber. I had fitted a 500MN MWD. The Stabber was headed toward me for a bump. I was headed straight at him with the MWD turned on going at max speed (about 500 m/s) the Stabber bumped me instead of the Orca bumping him.

I have heard from many people that ship physics regarding mass and speed are not in line with RL physics. How is it possible that a Stabber, with a much smaller mass than an Orca, can bump the Orca when it is going at full speed in the direction of the Stabber with a MWD turned on? It doesn’t make much sense to me.

I even bumped my own Orca pretty far with a frigate! How is that even possible???

Replying to the linked thread…

There needs to be some way to defend against a bumper in an ore/ice belt besides warping away.

I have tried many things to counter being bumped, including using a MWD (which is not cap stable) to bump the Stabber. I also tried using the anchor rig that doubles the mass of the Orca. This makes the Orca not go as far when bumped, so the bumper simply bumps the Orca again to get it away from the mining ships (so they are not in boost range.) Plus, the anchor slows the Orca speed to about 18 m/s which results in the Orca having to warp away then warp back to the belt. This is a pain when trying to give boosts to a fleet.

I’m trying to find some logical, effective way to counter a bumper that is pretty much immune to everything except being ganked. I might try that also if I they would not get a killright on me.

I saw the posts about defending moon ore from interlopers. So, not sure what to do about that. However, in a public ore belt, there should be some way to make it so a bumper can be countered. Sure, you can try to bump him back, but a Stabber with a MWD is fast and difficult to bump.

The Orca has a fleet hangar that is almost impossible to use when an aggressive bumper is hanging around. If someone is trying to use an Orca to receive ore from a mining ship, warping away makes that impossible.

This particular bumper will sit in a belt and bump every ship that is stationary or orbiting a rock slow enough where he can bump it. They will also usually sit in the belt and harass people until all the ore has been mined or until everyone leaves.

They especially seem to have a vendetta against Orcas (probably because they are easy to bump.) The bumper wants no Orcas in the belt at all. They want Orca pilots to use a Porpoise. I wouldn’t mind that so much except that the fleet hangar capacity is only 5,000 m3, so I am having to constantly transfer ore in the fleet hangar to the ore hold. The ore hold is also much smaller.

What this particular bumper is doing is pure harassment of miners plain and simple and there really isn’t anything we have figured out to counter it. We have even tried bumping Orcas back into the belt. That doesn’t really work since the Orca is too far away to use the fleet hangar.

After thinking about it a lot, I think in this circumstance where people are getting bumped in an ore belt, I would be in favor of the bumper going suspect so we have some way to deal with them. The bumper has all the benefits and zero repercussions.

FYI… I never mine AFK… ever! I can’t mine AFK, I use my Orca to haul ore for mining ships.

You’re constructive comments are most welcome! Miner bashing isn’t helpful. If there were no miners, where would you get the minerals to build all of your ships?

[Yberta_Molk]

Well basically Eve is an MMO not a sim, reality doesn’t come into it. Use a skiff or a proc and fit an MWD, orbit the rock/berg and pulse it when a bumper gets close, lol at bumper.

[Ser_Owen]

While I am not against the bumping mechanic, I would love to see impact damage being added with mass factored in. Want to bump an orca with your frigate? Expect serious armor/hull damage. Make suicide bumping a thing.

[Archer_en_Tilavine]

@pRyodon

How is it possible that a Stabber, with a much smaller mass than an Orca, can bump the Orca

@pRyodon

I have heard from many people that ship physics regarding mass and speed are not in line with RL physics.

Question asked, question answered.

But yes… the existing bumping physics are quite…

It should continue to be a thing, but it needs to be a thing that makes sense. Not necessarily corresponding to real life physics, but some kind of conceivably sensible physics.

[QuakeGod]

You wouldn’t want EVE to have real life physics. For example, I could instantly vaporize your Orca by slamming into it with a Vagabond at 13 km/s. It would be the equivalent of getting hit by 13 thousand tons at Mach 10. Both the Vagabond and your Orca would be instantly destroyed. So, instead of ganking your Orca with 35 Catalysts, now all it would take is a single Cruiser with an MWD.

Bumping is the only defense we have against botters and multiboxers that like to come in to the local ice anom in an Orca and 17 Skiffs and suck up all the ice in 15 minutes every single day…

[Scoots_Choco]

Calm down, miner.
It’s just a video game.

[Xuxe_Xu]

This topic yet again?..oh boy…

[Daichi_Yamato]

@pRyodon

There needs to be some way to defend against a bumper in an ore/ice belt besides warping away.

Perhaps don’t use an orca?

The same dodgey physics that gives us bumping is similar to the dodgey physics that prevents us from accelerating forever and hitting your orca with a battleship at 20+ km a second…

How far do you think you’d be bumped then?

[Kyra_Lee]

Have you tried shooting the bumper? Webbing your ships to each other? Finding a place not inhabited by people bumping orcas?

[Jerry_Falcone]

also remember this is outer space, not inner space. all physics laws that pertain to inner space, do not coincide with outer space.

[Ser_Owen]

I did not at any point advocate real life physics. I am just saying that making bumping have some effect would spice things up.

[Knowledgeminer]

@pRyodon

How is it possible that a Stabber, with a much smaller mass than an Orca, can bump the Orca when it is going at full speed in the direction of the Stabber with a MWD turned on? It doesn’t make much sense to me.

The magnitude that matters is the momentum = mass × speed. You need to tell us what the speed of each of the parts involved is, which you haven’t, for anything you said to be worth discussing. Just saying “MWD on” isn’t enough, too vague, that Stabber almost certainly has an oversized 500MN MWD fitted, plus other mods to increase speed…

[ShahFluffers]

@Ser_Owen

I did not at any point advocate real life physics. I am just saying that making bumping have some effect would spice things up.

Okay… let me take your idea in good faith and run down the list of realistic issues with it.

If bumping causes some kind of damage to all ships involved…

• Yes, this would indeed spice things up.
  – Large fleets would now have a “handicap” as they cannot simply “ball up” and play “follow the leader” with their FC… giving a much needed nerf to the N+1 mentality that most large organizations ascribe to.
  – Logistics would be MUCH trickier.
  – New tactics would open up and “suicide runs” might be more of a thing.
  – Capitals fleets would probably suffer the worst as multiple capitals jumping to the same cyno WILL bump into each other on the other side. Or worse… appear in the middle of a bunch of people and bump everyone out of the way.
  – People WILL scream bloody murder about all of the above.

• Mechanically there would be quite a few issues.
  – In low-sec and null-sec things might not be too bad as there are fewer aggression mechanics to get hung up on. Though… would bumping and causing/incurring damage confer aggression that prevents jumping through stargates and docking in stations?
  – How would the game tell the difference between the aggressor and recipient? If one person is bumped into another person… or things like warp accelerators, cynos, undocking ports, fleet warps, etc. throw players on top of other players… how will the mechanics tell the difference? Will both/all players get an aggression timer? If so, then a new way to prevent docking, gate-jumping, and logging off is born!
  – Expanding on the previous point: If no aggression timer results (to prevent the previous point’s issues) then you will have people taking advantage of this. I imagine people using it to damage ships and then jumping through a stargate or docking in a station to avoid repercussions.
  – Would CONCORD get involved in high-sec? Damage to ships has been done after all. Undocking would become an exercise in utter panic if one needs to undock in a large ship. Small ships would be affected too.

• One solution to the above points would be to create multiple undock ports on stations or expand the “drop” radius of warp fields and cynos… but problems would still persist. And the issues regarding aggression are still present.

What if bumping was made more “mass based” (as in, larger ships have more mass and thus are harder to bump)?

• Nice idea. It would help to avoid most of the aggression and mechanical points I listed above.
• New mechanical issues would be a problem. Specifically…
  – Wormhole mechanics would have to revised and rewritten. They are mass based.
  – Warp mechanics would have to be revised. Some of the calculations use the ship’s mass.
  – Microwarpdrive and Afterburner mechanics would have to be completely redone as they do use mass in their calculations.
  – Ships would also have to revised on a case-by-case basis as some of their strengths are based on their mass and how that mass is affected by the above mechanics.

---

Now… I’m not saying that the idea is “Dead on Arrival” or terrible. There is simply A LOT to consider over what on the surface seems to be a simple change.

I personally like the idea of bumping causing damage… but that is mostly because I am a chaotic personality and I would like to see large 100+ man fleets have some inherent pitfalls.
But this would come with a load of tradeoffs and issues that I mentioned above.

[Jint_Hikaru]

@pRyodon

After thinking about it a lot, I think in this circumstance where people are getting bumped in an ore belt, I would be in favor of the bumper going suspect so we have some way to deal with them. The bumper has all the benefits and zero repercussions.

And how would you propose this is calculated?

What if someone is coming out of the undock in Jita and runs into some people outside… should that person go suspect? he has just bumped some “innocent” people hanging around outside the station.

What if a bumper team sets up two ships, one in front of your Orca and one to bump you… They bump you with one ship that goes suspect… then you fly into the other ship… now you turn suspect?

These things WILL happen if “the bumper goes suspect” as you are requesting.

[Max_Deveron]

well for one thing…
The space Pope kinda of created the lore behind our power systems and stuff, to include warp drives.

That being said, any 2 ships never interact with each other, neither do their shields…
The effect of bumping is from the Warp fields touch and repelling each other like 2 magnets with opposing polarity

[Salt_Foambreaker]

@Kyra_Lee

Have you tried shooting the bumper? Webbing your ships to each other? Finding a place not inhabited by people bumping orcas?

lol

This is high sec and this is the result of the war dec nerf.

[you_are_evil]

@pRyodon

How is it possible that a Stabber, with a much smaller mass than an Orca, can bump the Orca

because you a miner and leet bumper can write:
CALM DOWN MINER

[Ser_Owen]

@ShahFluffers

Yes, this would indeed spice things up.
– Large fleets would now have a “handicap” as they cannot simply “ball up” and play “follow the leader” with their FC… giving a much needed nerf to the N+1 mentality that most large organizations ascribe to.
– Logistics would be MUCH trickier.
…
– Capitals fleets would probably suffer the worst as multiple capitals jumping to the same cyno WILL bump into each other on the other side. Or worse… appear in the middle of a bunch of people and bump everyone out of the way.

Not if you factor in mass AND speed. I don’t see people balling up on FC or Logi at 5-10km/s. Or you would introduce a collision threshold. Things that go soft-bump in the night don’t get counted.

@ShahFluffers

– New tactics would open up and “suicide runs” might be more of a thing.

Seems like a valid application?

@ShahFluffers

– People WILL scream bloody murder about all of the above.

That’s not an argument, really. People scream bloody murder about anything given when they feel a disadvantage (eg: cloaky camping)

[quote=“ShahFluffers, post:13, topic:243850”]
– In low-sec and null-sec things might not be too bad as there are fewer aggression mechanics to get hung up on. Though… would bumping and causing/incurring damage confer aggression that prevents jumping through stargates and docking in stations?
[/quote] You could flag objects as being “bump damage”, but I am sure that there are other solutions. Personally, I would laugh the balls out of my pants seeing frigates burning to gate and exploding on impact…

@ShahFluffers

– How would the game tell the difference between the aggressor and recipient? If one person is bumped into another person… or things like warp accelerators, cynos, undocking ports, fleet warps, etc. throw players on top of other players… how will the mechanics tell the difference? Will both/all players get an aggression timer? If so, then a new way to prevent docking, gate-jumping, and logging off is born!

Direction and speed? Angular velocity? I can think of a few data points that might help out there.

@ShahFluffers

– Expanding on the previous point: If no aggression timer results (to prevent the previous point’s issues) then you will have people taking advantage of this. I imagine people using it to damage ships and then jumping through a stargate or docking in a station to avoid repercussions.

Interesting thought though… I hadn’t thought of aggression timers yet. Maybe it should get a “weapons timer”?

@ShahFluffers

– Would CONCORD get involved in high-sec? Damage to ships has been done after all. Undocking would become an exercise in utter panic if one needs to undock in a large ship. Small ships would be affected too.

Again, thresholds might help here. (although, again, seeing Jita undock massively getting CONCORDOKEN’d would be hilarious as ■■■■…

@ShahFluffers

What if bumping was made more “mass based” (as in, larger ships have more mass and thus are harder to bump)?

I wouldn’t change mass of the ship, just use existing data points (mass, velocity, direction, etc) to determine impact damage, possibly with a threshold.

Thanks for bringing up a good points I hadn’t considered myself though. I am not sure how Crimewatch would fit in.

[Claud_Tiberius]

@QuakeGod

Bumping is the only defense we have against botters and multiboxers that like to come in to the local ice anom in an Orca and 17 Skiffs and suck up all the ice in 15 minutes every single day…

Why don’t you destroy them? If you know what they are always flying, and where they are always located, surely it must be easy to ambush with a suitable force?

[QuakeGod]

Sure, with a suitable force. Do you happen to have 60+ Omega accounts and 60+ Talos to go along with it? Because I don’t. Like I said, bumping and harassing them until they give up and leave is my only option.