Siege Green - Structure Updates Now Avaialble for Testing

Feature Previews & Feedback Balance and Mechanics
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609

I read what you wrote, you seemed to be going hard on HTFU type posting, because why not?

Using and defending ones space, fighting for it in depth with an extended defence, space that is not right next to hisec or has NPC stations. What it has proved is that you really have not thought this through, like CCP.

These changes have made it so medium structures are useless throw away structures, and you agree with me:

And that is the issue, it has been made too easy for big bloc’s.

Thanks for appearing to get it.

610

This is objectively False. A lot of the other guys in here that are trying to argue against this change fail to realize that the formula should also include lobbying and the role of the CSM. The type that gives zero sh*ts about you or your playstyle or how these changes will affect the game as a whole.

I.e. another way to win the game is to pressure the referee to change the rules to accommodate you.

My grandfather used to say ‘Let them graze grass’.

@CCP_Aurora and @CCP_Masterplan still haven’t replied why the POSes are more powerful than a citadel and that speaks volumes. Neither I saw somewhere mentioned how deploying a fort (which you have to drop with an orca) would work in a C1, but anyhow… logic here doesn’t matter.

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611

Have you considered the following, because it doesn’t sound to me like you have taken the feedback seriously or thought it through (fully):

In the current system with three timers, both attackers and defenders have equal chances, at least as far as information about the other side is concerned.

From past experience (in WH-Space), it has been the case that the shield timer was attacked when there was little or none of the defenders. This means that in the worst case the defenders know nothing about the attackers (no fleet composition, number of pilots etc.).
In the second timer, the attackers had to show themselves and the defender could use the information gained there in the third timer.

Now you remove this important timer for gaining information, which means that the information advantage of the aggressors is and remains greater. In addition, you have further nerfed the structures and altogether there are 0.5 days less available for the defenders (even with the new timers).

While I can understand you wanting more structures to be destroyed, with the changes I suspect the WH space will become even less busy. Also, frustrated people who have lost everything because there is no Asset Safety will leave the game. Is that your goal?

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612

Well, here’s one you might not understand particularly well. Narrative obligation, in some respects, for RP groups, citadels(or other structures, not exclusively upwells) represent a certain amount of commitment to a given locality. And in turn they also can generate some content, before they get inevitably rolled.

Some groups are committed to making one area of space work, even under the constant threat of medium or large powers sweeping in every other month to kick there teeth in(and the reason its every other month and not every week is usually due to the existing timer cycles and them burning down other timers in nearby regions).

These are just two sets of reasonings that can be applied Pixy, there are many others, and also many subvariations of the above.

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613

Simple! (The answer, I mean, not actually executing it…)

Step 1: Put up a Raitaru in the C1
Step 2: Build an Orca in the Raitaru
Step 3: Build a Fortizar in the Raitaru.
Step 4: Anchor Fortizar
Step 5: Begin building carriers in the Fort. >.>

614

So the C1 would require what is a higher bar of entry than the rest - you will have to not simply drop a fort but defend a rait/astra (lesser combat capabilities than a fort) for 2 weeks prior. :thinking:

I had a neighbor with schizophrenia and he said he saw people running (jogging), the people were running fast and deers also run fast thus the people were deers. He was afraid of the deer people and put bear traps in front of his doors to protect himself. Traps are used by bear hunters and bears are also animals like deers… you get the picture.

615

So, for one, because ‘is it worth it?’

Let’s say PNS has 2 Astra in Syndicate, and some null bloc wants to control the region—whch they do, from time to time, and let’s face it, whenever Shutupandshave is playing EVE, he’s going to have Black Omega trying to control ‘his’ parts of Syndicate no matter which group they’re in. Boy’s got a hardon for those particular moons.

So, let’s say you lose those every 5d. 24h to anchor, 5 minutes to RF, 3.5+ timer to wait and kill the armor. PNS is now replacing 18b a month that you get… no real utility out of.

So why is it a good idea to spend that money and get nothing in return?

And, for two… how about ‘you can’t’? Basically, only Horde will be able to defend their medium structures in Poch if they decide to clear everyone else’s.

616

Basically, yes. So get to it now before the changes happen. :wink:

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617

such game design much wow :crying_cat_face:

618

I don’t know who the hell you are, but you sound loads more qualified to be on csm than brisc does.

619

I’m an arrogant, pedantic, often foul-mouthed jerk is who I am. And if you don’t believe me, ask basically anyone who’s flown with me or is part of the RP community. :wink:

Brisc has spent his time on the CSM working toward the betterment of the game, and trying to listen to as wide a variety of opinions as he can. He’s made a career of listening, and working as an advocate for people even when he personally disagrees with them. He is eminently qualified for CSM, if he’s foolish enough to run again.

I, on the other hand, am definitely not that foolish. It’s a thankless position that sees you attacked by the people on whose behalf you’re trying to advocate, with hours upon hours of time spent each and every week. The people you’re talking to in the company largely ignore you, when they’re not trotting you out as a target dummy and letting you facetank the community’s anger at their actions. And for all this, you get… $300 US over the full year, as of May 17—literally not even half a day’s pay for someone like Brisc.

Brisc’s a politician and an advocate—both as a lobbyist and just as a lawyer, he likes to work on behalf of others, even (maybe especially?) when he’s tilting at windmills in a lost cause. Me, I like to solve problems, and while I’ve often felt the desire to throw my hat in the ring for the CSM, I’ve seen what it’s done to folks like Jin’taan, and Brisc, and I know that the sheer structural failure that CCP’s built into all aspects of it would drive me insane. And vice-versa, I suspect.

The CSM is definitely not worthless, and to my knowledge, it’s helped us all avoid even worse moves from CCP over the years, but the developers (not all, mind, some do listen) need to get their heads out of their butts and listen to what the CSM tells them as a whole, and stop deciding that the moment they get a single voice willing to give them the validation they so abjectly crave that that means their predetermined course of action is exactly the mostest perfectest thing EVAR.

It takes a special kind of masochist to do the job, over and above any altruistic dreams. As Brisc’s rightfully called me on more than once, when I get my teeth into something, I get… incredibly combative and arrogant to the point where I can come across as condescending. I don’t think I’d be at all effective as a CSM. Brisc is. He’s got the right temperament for it, and he’s incredibly qualified, too.

That doesn’t mean he’s perfect, and it doesn’t mean he doesn’t have blind spots, especially where his opinion is informed by his own direct experiences and long-standing frustrations. But that’s all I believe this is: a blind spot.

Edit: I’m also a verbose mo’fo. :smirk:

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620

I admit I know next to nothing about csm or the members, and I don’t want to imply Brisc hasn’t done his job on the csm. It’s just in this particular case he is coming off as extremely callous and uncaring.

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621

Hi, Brisc to me is the best CSM, because he interacts way more than anyone else on the Eve forums, and he does try to listen and understand. On this subject this is so important and in my opinion spot on from Arrendis:

He is close to the two main Initiative FC’s if my understanding is correct, and I think this is part of why he is not budging, and I understand it having been in a decent sized alliance and seen at least part of the issues.

Note that he liked the fuel bay idea.

The issue is CCP here.

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622

This TBH, despite butting heads pretty bad and answering Brisc with better treatment then when he initially engaged with a post of mine and getting shut down for it

And I’m pretty sure Arrendis and CCP would cause an explosion of some form by too much concentrated proximity with what the CSMs role is in practice

Brisc seems to at least be trying to do the job here, even if he seems unable to recognize or unwilling to publicly acknowledge the validity of some other points, or accuses others of doing things he himself did earlier in the conversation to use it to end one

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624

I was talking to a high sec player who was complaining specifically about the high sec timer.

If you’re going to give me a hard time, at least read first.

625

You are correct. I apologize. Comment removed. I will over time adapt and change to the ever-changing world that is eve. This is just one of the big sweeping changes made to help those already holding all the cards. The Big Corps that are tired of making a 3rd trip to destroy the station only helps them. Dropping the third timer helps no one else in the game. Definitely not the defender. I could care less about the change to the structure strength and believe that the shield cap removal finally gives a reason to undock a dreadnaught which is a good thing. Now my structure will die while giving large condor groups a change to get a Dreadnaught kill. That is exciting.

But don’t take the timer. For all the reasons that have been stated above. Intelligence needed of who is attacking, time to evacuate, and just a deterrent to make sure they really want to attack the station. Attacking a station should be a time commitment.

626

As callous and uncaring as the other CSM members that are simply not here participating in the discussion? As callous and uncaring as CCP who are the ones making the change and also not participating in the discussion?

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627

And yes, I view some forms of content as inherently better than others. A structure timer that generates a fight between fleets is, in my view, inherently superior to one that does not, for instance.

This change is going to remove fights over structures for small groups in low class wormholes (where L structures are not worth their cost or the attention they attract). Currently, the armor timer is our opportunity to force the attacker to show their hand. We undock for that to make them fight for it, and if we lose we can then decide whether we should evac before the hull timer, or go for round two.

Without the second timer, the first time the attacker has to show their hand is also our final opportunity to contest them. If we lose that fight we lose everything. So why would we not evac as much of our stuff as possible before that fight? And then, if we are going through the effort to evac everything anyway, what is the motivation to put up an actual fight when the time comes?

For our group specifically, we probably would still show up for that final timer anyway because we play Eve for the fights in the first place. But there are many who only fight to defend their stuff - when their krabs get caught or when their structures get attacked. If they already have to evac their stuff and have nothing left to defend, they won’t fight at all. And in our case, we’d show up to defend against the occasional eviction as we already do. But we wouldn’t be able to do this multiple times a month - and the single timer incentivises attackers to try it on anyway whenever they roll into us outside of our TZ.

I get that this change probably makes things better for a nullbloc FC. And I get that nullbocs are probably seeing bored members quitting the game because the game is pushing them towards stale structure bashing content. But small groups in wormholes are going to suffer for it. I can forgive you for considering us to be collateral damage for your preferred changes, but at least be honest and admit it.

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628

/sigh

Just once, it would be nice if folks could take what I’m saying at face value and stop accusing me of being dishonest or otherwise ignoring their views. I understand the concern you guys have, but what you said here…

…is what I expect is the most likely situation for many of the smaller groups in WH space. I don’t believe that everybody that lives in a C2 or a C3 is a tiny, risk averse krab corp who won’t fight if given the opportunity.

I did my best and got CCP to get you an extra day on your timers. I don’t know if anything more is possible. Then again, we haven’t seen the final iteration on this and probably won’t until after fanfest. If enough people grab Devs to complain about the changes there, who knows what the outcome may be.

629

If you want to understand why people might think you are ignoring them, then this would be an example - you quoted that line but you didn’t acknowledge what I said at the end of the same paragraph:

When I say “we won’t be able to do this multiple times a month” I mean exactly that - it’s physically not possible for my group to continue to play the game in that way. People already ping our structures occasionally before these changes, so I expect it will happen more frequently after the patch.

I don’t know what your acceptable threshold is for how often people should be expected to take time off work to defend the single structure timer on their home, but we all have a limit, and this change will go above what some people are able to take on. To be explicitly clear: that’s not me threatening to quit because I don’t like the change. That’s me pointing out that this change potentially makes it impossible for me to continue to play the game in this way.

I haven’t heard anyone say that reducing the number of small corps in low class wormholes is an intended outcome of the change, but I do believe that it will be a result of it. Maybe I’m interpreting it wrong though - perhaps the intention is that actually L structures should be a minimum commitment? Perhaps the intention is that small wormhole groups who don’t have the flexibility in their IRL schedules to mount an eviction defence every month don’t deserve to keep playing this way? If people think that way then fair enough, but if it’s not the intent, then how are we anything other than collateral damage?

Timer, singular. You say you understand my concern, but I’m not sure you do. With the changes, we only have one timer now. That’s the fundamental issue - no armor timer to fight, force the attackers to show their hand and then make a decision to fight the hull timer or evac. At small scale, the attackers will just stay logged off for another 24 hours, while the defenders have slightly longer to evac their stuff. At larger scale evictions, it’s an extra 24 hours of hole control, which nobody enjoys on either side.

So, while I appreciate the effort, the extra day doesn’t really change anything. It’s still going to mean fewer fights because people have to evac anyway, and it’s potentially going to mean less low class content in wormholes overall as the amount of IRL time commitment to just live in that space goes up. We do want to fight, if given the opportunity. So give us that opportunity - an armor timer to defend before the hull timer. I don’t care if it’s only for Astrahus, I don’t have if we can only put a month of fuel in the fuel bay, whatever is compatible with what’s needed for nullsec. But give us the opportunity to defend it (or at least tell CCP to do so).

Instead, when you’re actively in favour of the changes, and this is just meant to soften the blow a bit for those of us caught in the blast zone, then I’m sorry but it rings a bit hollow. You’re promoting a change because overall you believe it makes the game better for some people, a lot of them even, and that’s fine. But it makes things worse for others, who you claim to be sticking up for. Don’t piss on my head and tell me it’s raining.

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