We were all new players at the time. We had to queue up for weeks or months in advance, just like everyone else.
If you had been playing for the past 17+ years like vets have, I might actually give some credence to your attacks. But that isn’t the case. Long story short, it would serve you well if you refrained from speaking on subjects from a period of time you know nothing about…
Now that we’ve gotten past the attempted thread derailment, please, continue…
There’s no attack there just cold hard facts. Veterans have had it much easier but that reality doesn’t fit your narrative.
I can’t be certain this particular player is complaining about the same thing, nor can I be certain of the exact details, but my guess is that this complaint has to do with putting structures on grid with gates and use that intel to launch attacks or interdict a system. I never had a whole lot of problem with it living in small potato land (and so no experience with the issues others were having), but I have heard the complaints.
I don’t really care one way or the other, but I thought I’d mention it just in case you were curious what this complaint might actually be about even if I can’t give a definitive answer. It could also be that they just don’t want structures cluttering up their overview while on grid and havn’t configured the overview to exclude them, but seems like someone who’d played a long while would be able to manage that situation, or consider it a fairly minor annoyance.
It’s a shame ccp can’t give us a tactical reason for deployment of structures, some sort of placement criteria, maybe a bonus sys for off grid deployment for mining or industry, make them harder to find with the right fitting, so many things could be done with them
I think structures are in a strange place, thematically.
Industrialists want them but don’t need (and are unlikely to be able to defend) them.
Hisec war/PvP groups need them but don’t really want them.
I am not surprised, given this, that a lot of people are unhappy with their situation and you get the impression looking in on things from afar that the rules are they way they are to justify the development of the structures to begin with. Akin to that old tongue in cheek joke that ‘the goverment is expanding to meet the expanding needs of the government’.
I like structures and they’re probably the most fun I’ve had with Eve. Making them, placing them, using and losing them. …paying ridiculous amounts of money to maintain and fuel them. All those things out in space guzzling fuel made ice more valuable, and ice systems became a sort of hotspot for mini conflicts between miners and other miners or places for gankers to stir up a fuss. All of which I found interesting, if a little inconvenient at times. A small price to pay for entertainment.
The cores I’m not a fan of. The entire line of thought that you can only shoot people for profit without calling it griefing gives me a bad case of eyeroll, but the situation is the way it is and you’re looking to do what you can within the rules as they are.
Probably the last useful thing I can say is that if a group is profit motivated, you don’t have to win every engagement. You just have to make an engagement with you less profitable and/or more effort than other alternatives. There may also be opponents that are wont to fight a ‘worthy foe’, but these people may not be all that interested in destroying your structures and depriving themselves of future fights. If you entertain them and show up for conflict, they may decline to blow up your HQ at least, or put less effort in to show up for final timers. Some people do care about and consider such things. Your charges may get less mercy, though, especially if they bluster or practice poor sportsmanship when faced with losses.
In either case, though, you will need people who stick it out and competent leadership to develop a reputation for either making it harder or more expensive to take down structures, or bringing interesting content to Eve such that your bitter defeat and disbanding would leave your assailants more bored.
The quantum core for a Raitaru is only 800m ISK. Yes, I say only.
These arguments always miss out on perspective. People rant about Ventures being blapped, yet a gaussian laser fitted Venture can pay for its replacement in a single trip to the asteroid belts. People rant about barges being destroyed, yet a barge can mine enough in a few hours for a replacement.
So I simply don’t believe that anyone who’s doing mining, industry, etc and making ISK via their station is not making enough to replace it on the few occasions that station bashers show up. Their income from the station is far higher than the small share I get for destroying it with doctrine ships whose combined cost is equivalent to that of a Raitaru.
Good point about cost
Btw has anyone got fittings for structures for the best defence set up
The perpetual lie.
If they really wanted to and put in the (organisational) effort then they would be able to learn, plan and execute. But that takes effort and it doesn’t make them isk so they can’t be bothered, it’s literally just a choice.
I so hate the isk per hour thinking.
We once did a trig site in T1 cruisers with 3 t1 logic and two guys in the site in bling ships said that looks so much more fun than us sitting here and it was, no one ask about isk in our fleet
It should be fun per hour
OK, so… This is an honest question so don’t bite my head off, but ‘anyone’ is an extremely broad classification, and ‘making money’ is also nebulous, so… At what point in the ownership timeline of the Raitaru, taking into account the cost of the station, modules, fuel, and core, is it likely to have actually reached break even for an average highsec station owner vs using an NPC station? What does the average owner corporation consist of in terms of membership for the purposes of your calculation?
A large portion of HS (industrialists) are alts of null sec characters and groups. They, magically, have Auth for their discords and very often they talk about null politics one would only know about if they’re part of it. Being alts they don’t really CARE for fun, they’re meant to grind while at work or when their mains can’t for whatever reason.
They’re not invested and, being null players, someone would have to tell them what to do and provide the free ships to do it.
You constantly miss the point that it’s not about the core value. If cores didn’t drop but were still needed, the cost would be the same but the situation would be improved. The problem is that cores add an artificial profit to the takedown of a structure that is not based on the usage of the structure, and so it encourages wardec groups to take down the structures least likely to be defended.
Risk vs reward is supposed to be a factor, but cores mean that the structure rewards the same regardless o the risks and as a result, wardec groups are incentivized to take the lowest risk engagement.
She won’t be able to answer these questions. To be fair no one can because there are variables no one but the owners can know about their specific circumstances, but most small groups will not be making much of a profit off of their stations. For manufacturing for example, the cost index of a system is a far greater factor for smaller manufacturers.
These are excellent points.
Or … hear me out … this whole protection business could be outsourced to professionals, which happens all the time. Probably cheaper and less hassle.
The alternatives are that someone could organize a small corp defense union with all the problems, costs, and coordination issues identified in your post and in this thread, or they can pay a low monthly fee to Blackflag for a protection contract with a few clicks of a button and spend the rest of the month having fun in Eve without worrying about the safety of their structure. And if anyone does bother them, the proverbial Blackflag fleet with 20 paladins and ridiculous amounts of logi shows up to make short shrift of the attackers.
So, let me get this straight, high sec miners and industrialists refuse to purchase a mining permit from groups like CODE and SAFETY because they consider it to be extortion, but will gladly pay the group that just wardec’d them protection money so they don’t blow up their citadel…
Though it would be quite a sight to see 50 miners show up to defend their citadel in 50 battleship-tanked Skiffs with Neuts/Nos and 250 drones. They’ll never do it, of course, but still…
Nope. I made my point. Yours is irrelevant.
Could be a nugget of a doctrine here though.
Instead of forming a fleet that’s intended to beat the attacker fleet, what’s the most easily made and operated “nuisance” fleet that @Githany_Red 's proposed group could put together to make a high sec citadel assault more trouble than it’s worth?
Anything that could make them break off, or delay, or reset an assault should be a sufficient nuisance.
Or alternatively, if a third-party force could be induced to attack the attackers, a fleet that could hold the assault there and partly neutralize them so they’d be ripe for an ambush.
It would only take a handful of somewhat expensive fleet losses before mercs started re-calculating the value of attacking citadels.
I don’t do big fleet battles, or citadel assault/defense, so not really sure what approach to take here. A couple things that seem worth checking:
These notions are probably naive, foolish or too simplistic - as said, these aren’t my style of activity. Just basing it off the concept of “you don’t have to win, just make them regret they’d ever bothered attacking in the first place”.
Often overlooked is that stations can have their own defences…missiles, drones, neuting. They can neut logi, for example. They are certainly not defenceless in themselves. Oddly enough, I’ve seen fleets defend stations and I’ve seen station defenders within the station operate its defences…but I’ve seldom seen both work together.
Most defence fleets tend to concentrate on the ‘squishies’…the lower DPS cruisers in the attacking fleet. Those are not the ships delivering the most DPS to the station anyway, but attacking them forces defence by logi, and if logi are neuted then they can’t do so. That is the Achilles Heel of any attacking fleet…however most FCs make sure to bring sufficient logi along relative to the size of the defending corp.
Here’s the thing, though. All the fuss over cores…yet on one occasion we arrived and there were 7 Paladins parked outside the station. So, not exactly a corp flying around in beat up old Ford Escorts because some quantum core cost too much. I was expecting major carnage, but they left…didn’t bother to defend.
One occasion we helped with a station defense in low, our setup was fast frigs with ew burst, we use a cloak ship for our warp in, our target was the Leshak and logi.
Our small cheap fleet played havoc with spool up of the lashak and logi.
We mixed it up with all 15 of us warping together or on our own, why the structure and other defense fleet did there stuff.
In the end fraternity assigned a group of cruisers to try and stop us but we only lost 2 ships and we one the fight.
It was a fun evening