Some bad game concepts

[Pelgrim_Forever]

I’m still rather new to EVE, even when I’m playing regularly since oct. 2020.
And I like to discover things on my own.

EVE is very simple and basic, and at the same time very complex and overwhelming.
There are challenges big and small, and I like to take challenges, one at a time.

The one thing that makes EVE having a very bad game concept, it’s CONCORD and it’s lack of protection it provides.
Don’t get me wrong, after a while you kind of adapt to the ganking, the piracy, the disturbed behaviour some players add on top of all that, …
It’s all part of the game rules, which are mostly fictional physics rules and some police guarding stuff, and a “all is free” kind of attitude. Compliments to CCP for creating this.

And there it is: high sec police, as CONCORD, calmly being idle while you’re being killed.
Only after the kill you shall be avenged.
What a joke is that ?
It’s a game rule that is hugely in favor of piracy and is not realistic at all.
As if policing involves being witness to a criminal activity without intervening.
For some odd reason almost all crimes are done without police in sight

A realistic approach would be having police step up right after the first shot is fired.
And yes, that would make piracy a complete different game in high sec.
Must CONCORD be almighty and protect me with it’s omnipotence ?
Nope. But don’t let it do nothing.

That all said, the proverbial drop was me being ganked while leaving a station with 100+ mil on board in a hauler. Not the ganking itself: but the reaction of the pirate, saying “lol”.
What it meant in context: I’m a fool hauling valuable stuff in high sec from one place to the other under the nose of CONCORD police.

OK, let’s think this over.
I’m a new small town player trying to work my way just a little bit up the food chain of EVE.
High sec is my thing, as I’m no good in pvp yet, maybe never will be.
I started with the small crumbs, don’t we all, in my case hauling, or I should say: short term trading.
Even programmed my own tool that sniffs out opportunities for me, isn’t that public swagger API great !
So I’m aware, going to low sec gets me killed from time to time, acceptable risk, it’s low sec after all.
But hey, the game will punish me once I’m starting to move a bit more valuable stuff around.
Let me grow in my game on my own: that’s no option anymore.
Changing my game and become a pirate ? I just don’t enjoy being a paracitic life, there is no purpose in that.
Nice article about that:

I WAS A CODE. SPACE BULLY

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with ganking in Highsec. It’s allowed by the rules. I don’t think there is anything wrong with the permit / extortion racket either, as that’s allowed. Going above and beyond these activities to then attempt to induce anger on the part of the person behind the computer for the purpose of making fun of them on the blog, though? Playing people’s emotions to make them quit the game? Are these things good sportsmanship, metagaming and okay behavior? I’ll introdu…

Going to WH space with even much bigger risks ? I’m certainly not ready for that.

Adding it all up leaves me with unacceptable options:

• living under the tirrany of a corp dictating what I must do and not do ? Been there, thank you, but no, thank you.
• wasting my time in a game that will not let me evolve noticeable anymore, while it’s already such a “long” game ? Noooooo …
• running pve missions till I’m bored to death ? Common, be serious !

Don’t know what more to add to this list, I’m sure a lot more, but the conclusion will stay the same for me I’m afraid.

CCP gave us almost absolute freedom to do whatever we like in this game.
Human nature dictates it will be ruled by force and bullies if you leave it like this, and in a game, ok, why not.
There is no “safe zone” where you can learn stuff, or it will be in a way you serve other peoples agenda’s.
It looks more and more like a game where the “old generation” of players who gathered all there experience, knowledge and virtual wealth dominate the game to an extend where new players have no chance anymore to achieve something greater then being a dwarf among giants for the remainder of this game.

So, yep, what am I still doing in EVE ?

[Natalie_Patrovita]

@Pelgrim_Forever

And there it is: high sec police, as CONCORD, calmly being idle while you’re being killed.
Only after the kill you shall be avenged.
What a joke is that ?

Concord isn’t the police. Don’t even think they’re on your side. You’re all alone out there, just you and your ship. That’s it.

@Pelgrim_Forever

It’s a game rule that is hugely in favor of piracy

Yes, EVE is a game for pirates and combat pilots. If you don’t want to fight and lose a bunch of ships every months then you’ll have a hard time in it.

@Pelgrim_Forever

and is not realistic at all.

Right, it’s a fantasy world with weird rules which are calculated for your ship to explode. Whether you like it or not is incidental.

@Pelgrim_Forever

As if policing involves being witness to a criminal activity without intervening.
For some odd reason almost all crimes are done without police in sight

There’s no police in EVE, I don’t know where you got that idea but it’s false.

@Pelgrim_Forever

What it meant in context: I’m a fool hauling valuable stuff

Exactly.

@Pelgrim_Forever

But hey, the game will punish me once I’m starting to move a bit more valuable stuff around.

Worse, you get punished for logging in. As a new player you’re fish food, cannon fodder…

@Pelgrim_Forever

Let me grow in my game on my own: that’s no option anymore.

It is an option. Just know you’ll be losing lots of ships for not much reward. Risk vs Reward system in EVE is all kinds of broken ever since CCP decided to play the game themselves and engage in PvP with its players. Since they control the game they win everytime.

@Pelgrim_Forever

Changing my game and become a pirate ? I just don’t enjoy being a paracitic life, there is no purpose in that.

That’s where you’re wrong, it’s the only viable gameplay left in EVE. Blow things up for fun. If that’s not fun to you then you’re in the wrong game.

@Pelgrim_Forever

a game where the “old generation” of players who gathered all there experience, knowledge and virtual wealth dominate the game to an extend where new players have no chance anymore to achieve something greater then being a dwarf among giants for the remainder of this game.

Congratulations, you figured all that out all on your own.
Fly Safe now o7

[Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras]

This topic again?

Faction police target those who have negative standings to that empire. They can be avoided and destroyed.

CONCORD is Not the police. Their job is to punish those who commit a crime in high security space.
You cannot avoid nor destroy them.

[Shipwreck_Jones]

@Natalie_Patrovita

EVE is a game for pirates and combat pilots.

It’s also for miners, traders, industrialists, explorers, and… well… the entire player ecosystem.

@Natalie_Patrovita

Worse, you get punished for logging in. As a new player you’re fish food, cannon fodder…

This is terrible perspective to have, and a terrible one to teach to newbros. This is the kind of thinking that leads to frustration, stagnation, and players quitting. Instead, I recommend that you view losses as learning experiences. Feeling like you got something out of a loss removes a lot of the sting and helps you to grow as a player.

@Natalie_Patrovita

Risk vs Reward system in EVE is all kinds of broken ever since CCP decided to play the game themselves and engage in PvP with its players. Since they control the game they win everytime.

Risk vs Reward of many activities is indeed in need of balance, but I adamantly disagree with Patrovita’s assertion as to why this is the case. This is the type of conspiracy theory BS that is typically vomited up by bittervets.

@Natalie_Patrovita

That’s where you’re wrong, it’s the only viable gameplay left in EVE. Blow things up for fun. If that’s not fun to you then you’re in the wrong game.

This is an absolutely absurd assertion. The game is filled with carebears that happily stick to their PvE. And there are many more players that enjoy both PvE and PvP. That being said, Eve is a PvP-centric game with a harsh death mechanic. Thus, it would behoove you to employ risk management strategies.

@Pelgrim_Forever

a game where the “old generation” of players who gathered all there experience, knowledge and virtual wealth dominate the game to an extend where new players have no chance anymore to achieve something greater then being a dwarf among giants for the remainder of this game.

@Natalie_Patrovita

Congratulations, you figured all that out all on your own.

I started playing this game in September 2015. By that time, the game was already 12 years old and had a storied history. Empires had risen, held the galaxy by the throat, and then crumbled to ashes. Entire generations of players had come and gone by the time I got pooped out in space in a rookie ship with 5k isk. Yet, I still managed to survive and thrive. Do you want to know why? Well, it doesn’t matter because I’m going to tell you anyway.

First, I viewed losses as learning opportunities, and always, always got back up, no matter what. Yes, I did experience my fair share of failures. But I learned from them, and grew as a player.

Second, in spite of what the bitter vets might say, Eve has several brilliant design decisions that provide new players with plenty of opportunity to grow into their own. For example:

• The exponential increase in skill training times means that, as far as character skills are concerned, you can become 80% as effective as a maxed out character in 20% of the time it took him to max out his character. Yes, your character will definitely suck when first starting out, but you will gain “power” at an extraordinary rate. It’s like the equivalent of going from pewee football to varsity ball within your first year, playing at the college level for your second, and going pro in your third.
• If new players specialize in a handful of ships, they can achieve parity with vets relatively quickly. Of course, many new players don’t know what they want to do or fly, and their plans can change, but players usually figure things out well within their first year, and start becoming badasses within their specializations.
• Asymmetric game play means that newbros are rarely pitted in “fair” fights against ancient vets of astounding power. Vets, can bait, hot drop, gate camp, gank, blob, and all that good stuff… but so can you. You don’t have to fight fair any more than they do.
• The way ships are balanced in Eve is abso-fukin-lutely brilliant. It means that bigger, more expensive, more skill intensive ships aren’t always better. This, in turn means that you do not have to fly the most expensive, most skill intensive ships to be able to win fights or make meaningful contributions to fleets.

Anyway, I could go on, but this has already turned into a wall of text. So let me sum up by saying this. The game doesn’t need to be changed for new players to succeed. It is their attitude, determination, and brains which will determine whether they succeed or fail. Yes, New Eden is a hostile environment. Yes, the learning curve will be steep. And yes, it will be hard. But, imho, this is one of things that makes Eve great.

There is nothing wrong with wanting something less challenging (lord knows I often do). However, if that’s what you want, you should go look for something more your speed, rather than trying to turn Eve into another kiddy pool of a game.

[Natalie_Patrovita]

@Shipwreck_Jones

Yes, New Eden is a hostile environment. Yes, the learning curve will be steep. And yes, it will be hard. But, imho, this is one of things that makes Eve great.

One? You cited three things so which one is it then?
In your efforts to shill for CCP you can’t keep straight on your sentences, lmao

[Einarr_Wolff]

@Pelgrim_Forever

I’m a fool hauling valuable stuff in high sec from one place to the other

It depends on how you do it and how much effort you put in to lower your risk. EVE is a competitive game and as such it requires effort to be able to compete and exist in this universe, it’s also very much about risk management. All those things take effort: effort to learn the basics of the game, effort to understand what works and what doesn’t. If you don’t put in that effort what makes you think you’re owed safety?

@Pelgrim_Forever

It looks more and more like a game where the “old generation” of players who gathered all there experience, knowledge and virtual wealth dominate

Many “old players” make the same mistakes as newer players for the simple reason that they never bothered to learn and improve. The solution isn’t character age, the solution is putting in effort to learn. This is also why newer players can do just fine because if you choose to put in effort to learn and improve you can very quickly outperform or deal with older players.

Take your losses for instance, without going into details much you have made a whole lot of oopsies in your losses. From moving just WAY too much value (if you had asked in Rookie channel about moving valuables you’d have been told that 300 mil in a basic hauler just isn’t as good idea. Very little effort on your part could have avoided this whole issue) to fitting railguns to Stabbers. Many many things that could so very easily have been avoided had you put in a little bit of effort to learn about things, to ask questions and to think&plan before doing.

Ultimately you didn’t think and plan, you just did stuff. That’s kinda problematic in a competitive PVP environment that EVE is. If you don’t enjoy the competitiveness of EVE you are playing the wrong game, that doesn’t mean you have to do a 180 and become a pirate/ganker or whatever (although it would probably be fun) you just have to understand that you can’t just yolo around and expect to be safe.

[Pelgrim_Forever]

Interesting reading, as expected, if there was reaction, it would be looking down on me and from the mindset of superior knowledge / character / …
No reason to defend me at all, why would I.

It is also interesting that that little thing was “forgotten” or avoided in the replies, as if aimlessly pointless attacks on relative new players is a perfectly acceptable thing to do.
I repeat that interesting piece once more:

I WAS A CODE. SPACE BULLY

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with ganking in Highsec. It’s allowed by the rules. I don’t think there is anything wrong with the permit / extortion racket either, as that’s allowed. Going above and beyond these activities to then attempt to induce anger on the part of the person behind the computer for the purpose of making fun of them on the blog, though? Playing people’s emotions to make them quit the game? Are these things good sportsmanship, metagaming and okay behavior? I’ll introdu…

Try to imagine if all those small pirate gangs would join and start an “empire” on their own. It would make all that “talent” to have a goal in the game.

[DeMichael_Crimson]

I think you’re replying to an alt of Destiny Corrupted.

[Daichi_Yamato]

@Pelgrim_Forever

For some odd reason almost all crimes are done without police in sight

Thats incredibly realistic if you ask me.

@Pelgrim_Forever

A realistic approach would be having police step up right after the first shot is fired.

CONCORDs slowest response time is 30 seconds. That is faster than anything in the real world.

@Pelgrim_Forever

What it meant in context: I’m a fool hauling valuable stuff in high sec from one place to the other under the nose of CONCORD police.

To be fair, there was probably something you could have done differently to avoid being ganked. Of course no one expects you to know everything from the get-go, but now that it has happened, this is an opportunity to ask the community what you could have done differently and learn from what went wrong rather than ask for the entire game to change around you.

[Iceacid_Frostpacker]

To me Eve Online is like playing as a mouse in a cat infested kitchen where the cheese smell is just stronger enough to entice me to undock.

[tutucox_Khamsi]

same old … same old …

0.5.mp4

we kinda like the way eve is …

[Natalie_Patrovita]

@tutucox_Khamsi

same old … same old …

That cartoon had me LMAO, thanks!

@DeMichael_Crimson

I think you’re replying to an alt of Destiny Corrupted.

That’s funny too!

[Iceacid_Frostpacker]

I had once met Destiny Corrupted ingame for realz!

[DeMichael_Crimson]

@Natalie_Patrovita

@DeMichael_Crimson

I think you’re replying to an alt of Destiny Corrupted.

That’s funny too!

What’s funny is you’re still here posting in these forums after saying this in the Multiboxing Poll thread, Feb 2021:

@Natalie_Patrovita

WOW! Look at these results. EVE players prefer to cheat than play for the fun of the game.
Good thing I didn’t pay one day for omega time.
Uninstalled with negative review on Steam. See ya

@Natalie_Patrovita

I used my alpha account to try it out.
The verdict is in: EVE is a game for cheaters, liars, thieves, toxic abusers of online gaming and the worst of people society has to offer.

@Natalie_Patrovita

Anyway, I’m at work right now. I will biomass when I come home.
Enjoy your cheating game by and among yourselves.
Patrovita OUT

Then you continued in April with this:

@Natalie_Patrovita

That’s all it’s about, looking good. That’s the only reason zKillboard exist.
This game is for cheaters. What do you call someone with 20 accounts logged in simultaneously? I call that cheating.
CCP is okay with cheating as long as it serves their purpose and that’s why they’re losing players.

@Natalie_Patrovita

A complete iteration of Captain’s Quarter would make me come back to EVE. That’s a fact. Until then ( or never ) it’s Elite and X4 for me.

And yet you’re still here, only now posting comments like you’re a long time Eve player,

[Phelan_Kheldian]

@Pelgrim_Forever

I’m still rather new to EVE, even when I’m playing regularly since oct. 2020.

Eve has been around since 2003. Have you considered that perhaps Eve is not the game for you? Look, I’m not the best at FPS games and I enjoy Destiny; however, you aren’t going to find me on CoD forums telling them their game has bad game concepts because I want space magic.

I understand a game needs two things to stay going: new players to replace those who left and player retention. Do you know which of those is more important? It’s easier to keep the customers you already have than to get new ones.

SOE tried to pull in new customers by making SWG more like WoW after WoW got what was previously unheard of subscription numbers. Do you know what happened? SWG’s subscription numbers dropped because they lost players who were upset their game was changed.

And you’re asking for the same thing here. Understand: not every game is meant to be enjoyed by everyone.

Also, I’ve been playing on and off for years. My wife started playing a little over a year ago (dragging me back in). Do you know how many times the two of us combined have been ganked in high sec? A whooping zero.

Tank your ship.
Don’t mine where ganking corps frequent (5 jumps of any major trading hub)
Set ganking corps to orange or red so you see them pop into local.
Learn to D-scan. If you see a large number of ships used for ganking (thorax and catalysts), it might be time to move

If you’re getting ganked in high sec, you most likely did something wrong. Instead of demanding the game be changed to fit what you expect, change your expectations and learn how to actually play the game.

[Avaelica_Kuershin]

@Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras

This topic again?

This topic, ripe for rage-posts and troll-posts, and it doesn’t look like the former.

[Deracus_Stargazer]

Same here. Best advice in short form.
I really struggle to understand the whole ganking-cries.
Haven’t been fanned once…and I only amount to a total playtime of about a year now, but spread out over a decade…so I got some different glimpses of space for sure…

I like the thrill of danger in eve. I think that is what got me playing and staying to begin with.
Eve feels dangerous. I mean…when playing hide and seek as a child…didn’t you also want to be among the hiders instead of the seekers? Way more fun to outmaneuver someone.

It definitely is possible to avoid ganking. There are systems to mine in with relative quiet, zkill is a great ressource to research before an activity. The knowledge is all there, as well as super friendly players in several channels and corps. It just takes a bit of personal effort to get settled in.
Of you don’t like that…there are plenty of other space games with different mechanics and crowd.

[Trevor_Dalech]

@Pelgrim_Forever

CONCORD and it’s lack of protection it provides.

if you truly believe this, why aren’t you mining/ratting/whatevering in low sec, since the presence or absence of concord appears to be irrelevant to you?

@Pelgrim_Forever

A realistic approach would be having police step up right after the first shot is fired.

How would this be realistic? Imagine it… you get mugged, the mugger fires his gun, and a police officer magically appears in the path of the bullet, blocking it and then arresting the mugger?

Personally, I think the fact that concord manages to show up 100% of the time, and has a 100% catch rate, is highly unrealistic. More realistic would be if, after being ganked in high sec, the ganker would get away, and later you show up at the police station, wait several hours in line (waiting time may depend on whether you’re a rich caldari or a poor minmatar), then make a report of a crime, which would result in the ganker’s security rating being lowered.

But why are you expecting realism in a computer game?

[DeMichael_Crimson]

Actually every police force has a division of Detectives and Inspectors who go after criminals.

As for adding realism to this game, CCP uses that term as an excuse whenever they want to increase in-game tax or want to implement something such as the current Resource Scarcity Phase.

[Terak_Romaller]

Whenever I see someone posting “It’s unfair that people can shoot at people” type posts then I go and look at their kill board. It normally explains their ranting.

Iteron Mark V | Pelgrim Forever | Killmail

Summary 300m ISK of minerals being hauled probably AFK in a T1 industrial through a busy bit of hi-sec. He was 21km off a station when he was hit by a fast locking DPS fitted Tornado (A common ship for that kind of work).

The Police (Concord) aren’t there to save a person that decides it’s a good idea to walk slowly past the muggers waving a wad of cash in the air while watching videos on his phone. As in the real world: after the offence was committed the authorities stepped in, identified and correctly punished your attacker: Tornado | Kento Bento Box | Killmail | zKillboard

If the Police in the real world operated as people want Concord to operate in Eve then people would be screaming about a CCP treating Eve as a fascist dictatorship police state where you can’t do anything without prior permission.

OP. Take a deep breath, consider it a lesson learnt and don’t go giving people here the satisfaction of your thrown toys and tantrums.
I’ve lost more expensive ships than that. You swear, you learn what you did wrong, you take a deep breath and remember not to do it again. If you are angry, take a break. Come back tomorrow when you are calm.

Smile: unless someone does anything silly in the next hour you’ll be the biggest kill in Dodixie today.