-25% rate of fire penalty removed from destroyers making it cheaper
Introduction of Talos and Tornado
Introduction of tethering in hisec with structures giving gankers easy warp and safe perches.
Wreck HP increased to stop AG from blowing up the wrecks
Loot scooping through DST’s using noob ships
Tags to remove criminal standings making it possible for Tornado gankers
More recently increase in damage on blasters with T2 ammo in particular
The buff to mining ships and exhumers EHP happened two and a half years after the -25% ROF was removed. The more recent one was due to the buff in gun and T2 ammo.
When CCP Fozzie realised that he had been had with the wreck EHP increase pushed by the CEO of the main Goon ganking corp, he sheepishly increased freighter EHP to compensate, even then it was a massive buff to ganking. I think that added about 30m to the cost…
The narrative you push is false, and the emotion is all from you.
Buffs to mining barges EHP
Introduction of expedition frigates
Introduction of tethering in hisec with structures giving haulers and miners easy warp and safe perches… as well as repairs.
Introduction of Warp Core Stabilizers
This coming from the guy who has already used three argument fallacies and then accused me of starting the red herrings when the receipts show otherwise.
Also, if I’m the one who is all emotion, why have you literally edited your post 3 (or is it 4 now) times in the time its taken for me to respond to it? Because you’re responding emotionally and haven’t allowed your thoughts to complete before you hit enter. You’re the one making sarcastic (and thus emotional) comments about my tactical acumen. You’re the one who went to red herring argument fallacies and then when they got called out on it attempted to shift the blame to me… except the log shows otherwise. And then you moved the goalpost to me supposedly trying to bait out a response… as if you know what I’m thinking. All a lot of emotional responses here.
Now, let’s review where I’ve stood:
Eve Online is a game that rewards those who have learned the game and take the time and effort to be successful. Its an opinion, but it isn’t “emotional”. You even agreed with me stating, "I do that, but you just reinforced my point about time and jumping through hoops and all that. Most people do not want to spend that amount of effort in their limited play time and that is why gankers have it easy, there is always going to be people who take that risk due to time constraints, you define them as daft. So what this does is limit the potential player base by a great deal.
And let’s go over your response here… because its really the basis of both our arguments. Your argument is that gankers have it easy because there is always prey. Why is there always prey? Because players take the easy route. Eve is a game where almost everything has a counter.
You want to be lazy and make the quick run into trading hubs using your low tanked ship. The counter to that is gankers blowing up your ship. What’s the counter play to gankers? Use DSTs and tanking your ships. What’s the counter play to that? There really isn’t one unless the gankers want to lose too much ISK. Sure, they want the tears; but, if ganking isn’t sustainable, they aren’t going to do it. In short, people have a counterplay to gankers, they just refuse to use it because they don’t want to.
When people chose to edit posts with more information certain posters take it as a sign of madness, or a personal attack, I also tend to mistype certain words while touch typing, so correct them too. I added things to my post having thought about it further. I am deeply sorry that this has hurt your sensibilities but getting upset enough to define that as me being emotional is, rather emotional.
That is an argument that you have pulled out of the emotional ether and attributed to me.
Seriously, where did you pull that emotive guff from?
I get it that many of you cannot handle your feelings being challenged by facts, but the emotion is all yours.
But I am intrigued:
How does that nerf ganking in any serious way? They are great for nullsec and lowsec, WH space too, but hisec, not really…
In this post, you said the following: Most people do not want to spend that amount of effort in their limited play time and that is why gankers have it easy, there is always going to be people who take that risk due to time constraints
Your words: gankers have it easy because people don’t want to deal with time restraints.
See above. Your words, not mine.
Cloak for the Prospect and Endurance. Venture (technically not an expedition frigate, but their T1 counterpart) comes with +2 warp core strength built in. Much faster align time than mining barges and exhumers so you can get out quicker if you see anything on D-scan or see a spike of ganking corps in local.
I said that people often had time constraints and did not want to spend all their time moving stuff around. Not quite what I said but close enough, but you said this, not sure where you got that from:
So totally your words not mine.
I should point out another buff to ganking was the differential warp speed and most ganking ship[s warp very fast and reduce the value of D-scan greatly. Before warp speed was changed your comment about D-scan would have merit, but the time to react reduced a lot. And in fact you have highlighted another buff to ganking.
Better still for people is to find out of the way systems to mine in because if they mine in busy systems they spend all their time warping away as yet another Goon warps from gate to gate. Real word example of why looking for reds is not the real answer either.
LOL. You mean those things just suffered the worst nerf in my memory.
Or maybe being emotional YOU are responding too fast??
As a person that has trouble being concise I often put up posts and then realize there is simply too much information there, or points I make and believe but see they will be used to go down a rabbit hole by the many unreasonable posters here. I also find spelling errors and grammar mistakes and fix them. You are making much too much of edits. In fact, 80 percent of the time, by my experience, it is the person who tries to beat an opponent over the head about edits who is the one pushing garbage argumentation that was so oversimplified and misguided that editing couldn’t make it better.
I don’t know how many times I’ll have to C&P this comment before you understand it, but this time I’ll bold the important parts as you are now attempting trivial objections.
Most people do not want to spend that amount of effort in their limited play time and that is why gankers have it easy, there is always going to be people who take that risk due to time constraints.
So let’s review. “…gankers have it easy, there is always…” Therefore, you said: ganking is easy because there is always prey. Just because I said it a different way doesn’t mean it doesn’t mean the same thing. But hey, I understand your desire to split hairs (that’s the informal term for trivial objections) at this point.
I also want to be clear what I mean by lazy. I mean the literal definition: disinclined to activity or exertion. These players are disinclined to take the time to use DSTs and/or fit tank to their ship. As for time constraints: yes, they exist. People have a limited amount of time to play a game like Eve. Why did I bold game? Because that word is very important in this context. Its a game, this isn’t a real life job. If the loot isn’t delivered to the trading hub today, the player isn’t going to suddenly be without food or a home. They will simply have to wait for the next time they log in to do the activity.
Is it boring? For most people, yes. I know some people really enjoy hauling, but its not my thing. When you play Eve, you have to make choices. In this case, this is the choice:
Do I take the time to safely move my product, which is boring and takes time away from other aspects of the game? or
Do I risk my loot by moving it in an unsafe ship so I can enjoy other aspects of the game?
Its a choice they make. And as you pointed out, there is always someone taking option 2… and paying for it. But with all things in Eve: choices matter.
So, let’s review this with some actual facts… because facts are important. Since the sub-discussion we are having is about if expedition frigates nerfed ganking, we’re going to use them as the examples in these facts. What is the warp speed of the fastest gank ship in Eve Online? Well, that would be the Catalyst with a whooping 4.5 AU/s warp speed. And what’s the range of D-scan? 14.3 AU. Let’s do some math. 3.2 seconds where you can see them.
Let’s take the math a bit further. What’s the scanning res on a Catalyst? 625mm. Which means it takes it roughly 3.4 seconds to lock onto a frigate sized ship (according to pyfa). So, you have roughly a 6 second window to get out. Let’s go check the align times of these frigates. The slowest non-combat one (you can use Prospects for hunting with a cyno) I have in Pyfa is 6 seconds. However, that’s a T1 Venture fitted with shield rigs and with a MWD running; it costs about 12 million ISK.
Let’s go further into the math… One gank Catalyst (costing about 17 million ISK) would need 5 seconds to destroy it according to pyfa. So, the miner has roughly 11 seconds to get out… and this assumes the Catalyst warps right on top of it while the Venture is running its MWD.
No emotion there, pure math. So, yes. Ventures and their T2 counterparts did nerf ganking.
I completely agree. If people actually were inclined to find (via dotlan or the in-game star map) safe places to mine, they wouldn’t be ganked. So, you agree that if a player isn’t lazy, they won’t be ganked. Thank you for conceding the argument.
Overall, it was a nerf. There was a small buff in that now they provide +2 warp core strength, so now a single point can’t grab you… as long as you remember to activate the module. I honestly didn’t have a problem with the changes to the WCS; and I won’t comment on the nullifier changes as that’s completely unrelated to hi-sec ganking.
They weren’t spelling error and grammar mistakes. He kept adding on more and more. He added this comment: The narrative you push is false. And then changed it to this less than 30 seconds later: The narrative you push is false, and the emotion is all from you.
No spelling or grammar errors there. Just adding to his ad hominen attack.
I don’t normally call out number of edits. However, see above. Not a needed edit, just an emotional response and an ad hominen attack. Furthermore, the player in question has accused me of being the one to go off on tangents when the log shows otherwise. And here it is again, he’s projecting his argument fallacies onto me. That’s why I pointed it out.
Again, I don’t normally call out edits… but see above. Did his comment add anything to the discussion? Nope. Was it an argument fallacy he should have been called out on? Yes, when someone uses an argument fallacy, they should be called out on it. Because in formal debate (not my experience), the side using the most argument fallacies is the side that can’t actually make their argument.
I invite both of you to stand up and ensure Kusion gets no ganks for a solid week…without making some sort of special deal with him or anyone else…just solid AG work. You two can even partner up to do it.
Its really easy to run your gob about things you don’t do. Put up or shut up.
Here’s the part of EVE which just blows over your head Ridley. Social skills matter. Social relationships matter. I’m friends with Jason, we are friends in real-life. I could antigank him, but I don’t want to. When you start ganking, perhaps I will antigank you!
I have different ideas about fun in this game. No one forces you to play the ever failing white knight. That is your choice alone.
There are ag that successfully stopped me and annoyed the crap out of me, like for example @Knowledgeminer , maybe he can teach you how not to constantly fail daily.
