Some bad game concepts

[Dracvlad]

@Karak_Terrel

Are you saying most ag are so bad because they don’t use all the available tools but if they did anti-ganking was easy?

No, that is not what I am saying.

For example many gankers have nullsec mains funding their play and have advantage of being funded by that which is an advantage, while a hisec AG player is often trying to hide who he is because they do not want to be directly targeted, we would know this as a strategic constraint, or strategic advantage in terms of a ganker.

I used my main because I am not scared of gankers, but many indy players are.

@Karak_Terrel

The whole point of this exercise is to show that the tools are available not to repeat the same mistake most ag make or half-ass the commitment to the cause. My critic for Ridley was that he doesn’t use all the available tools. Why should I intentionally make the same mistake?

Again this makes it meaningless because what you define as half arsed commitment is what AG often has to work with because most of the people do it are indy players who don’t have much of an idea. The thing is that it is not their main focus and ignoring that reality is just ignoring reality.

It is not so much a mistake but reality.

@Karak_Terrel

Well he said it’s already challenging to prevent one Catalyst. So he was wrong?

No he is not, but that catalyst would have a narrower target selection and of course be easier to deal with and identify the likely target. But he could just JC to another area of space gank and you lost.

@Karak_Terrel

I’m willing to accept that he can team up with two other players if you really insist that you need at least 3 characters and multiboxing is too much to ask. But if he uses alts and friends, so will I, we need to keep this fair.

I was assuming that it would have to be on the same basis as actual ganks.

@Karak_Terrel

Yes, I will not be satisfied with such low standards.

But that would be the same as him jump cloning to the other side of the map and ganking something there and claiming victory, it is meaningless.

@Karak_Terrel

What’s not fair about it?

I said fairness does not come into it, in other words I am ignoring any fairness.

@Karak_Terrel

He always complains that ganking is easy and anti-ganking is difficult. He suggested I try anti-ganking and I will accept the challenge if he takes the role of the ganker instead. According to him I get the hard part and his task is easy. He said everything is stacked in favor of the ganker. So why not let him answer? I expect him to jump on the chance to prove his point he tried to make in all the posts he wrote.

He is saying and I agree with him is that AG is harder than ganking. Once you have set up two gank alts and a scout you will be a successful ganker and the only way you can lose if you are useless yourself. The biggest issue is interdicting a miner ganker and that is often the hardest thing to do as a solo AG. The ability to have fluid target selection is what makes the win certain.

All he has to do is JC and gank on the other side of the map and declare victory.

[Karak_Terrel]

@Dracvlad

For example many gankers have nullsec mains funding their play and have advantage of being funded by that which is an advantage, while a hisec AG player is often trying to hide who he is because they do not want to be directly targeted, we would know this as a strategic constraint, or strategic advantage in terms of a ganker.

I used my main because I am not scared of gankers, but many indy players are.

I’m not scared to use my main either. So I don’t see an issue here.

Look, I can see that there is maybe a socioeconomic dynamic here, with gankers having mighty nullsec mains (I don’t, this is my main, I use him as a scout for ganking) and the working poor aka ag having to grind lvl 4 to afford a griffin and nourish their kids, because CCP has somehow locked them out of the nullsec gold mine.

But that is not really the issue we try to explore here. It’s more about the pure game mechanics and if the available tools present in EVE are enough or if the space pew pew game mechanics themselves are stacked in favor of the ganker. If they are, clearly Ridley should have an advantage.

@Dracvlad

Again this makes it meaningless because what you define as half arsed commitment is what AG often has to work with because most of the people do it are indy players who don’t have much of an idea. The thing is that it is not their main focus and ignoring that reality is just ignoring reality.

It is not so much a mistake but reality.

Ok, sure, ag stuff is not the real passion and most do it as a hobby while having a full time job grinding somewhere else. I get that.

I don’t think this makes it meaningless to check if the pew pew game mechanics themselves are stacked in favor of the gankers or not. I’m sure we can all work together to eliminate as much of this motivational issues from the experiment as possible to get a true picture of what the mechanics themselves are.

If it turns out that anti-ganking is super easy using all the available tools with a nice character I will freely admit that this may not reflect the harsh realities of the single parent ag dad in todays highsec. Fair?

@Dracvlad

No he is not, but that catalyst would have a narrower target selection and of course be easier to deal with and identify the likely target. But he could just JC to another area of space gank and you lost.

Yeah he could. Although he can only jump once and then I can catch up with him and try to prevent the next ganks. I will not give up just because I lose one sheep.

@Dracvlad

I was assuming that it would have to be on the same basis as actual ganks.

I leave that up to him, whatever he thinks is necessary to demonstrate that ganking is easy and hard to prevent by ag

@Dracvlad

But that would be the same as him jump cloning to the other side of the map and ganking something there and claiming victory, it is meaningless.

That is the second time you mention that. That’s not the only way to evade anti-ganking isn’t it?

@Dracvlad

I said fairness does not come into it, in other words I am ignoring any fairness.

Not sure what you mean

@Dracvlad

He is saying and I agree with him is that AG is harder than ganking. Once you have set up two gank alts and a scout you will be a successful ganker and the only way you can lose if you are useless yourself.

Cool, so sounds like I got the challenging part in this

@Dracvlad

The biggest issue is interdicting a miner ganker and that is often the hardest thing to do as a solo AG. The ability to have fluid target selection is what makes the win certain.

I think he complained about Freighter ganking since he mentioned Kusion, but I’m open to both variations, whatever he thinks demonstrates best that ag is super difficult and ganking is easy. Or we can just do one day of freighter ganking and one day of miner ganking. Totally open for it.

@Dracvlad

All he has to do is JC and gank on the other side of the map and declare victory.

Again with the jump clones. Sounds like they are a big issue. Nerf request incoming?

[Dracvlad]

Quite frankly he is not in a position to open up 27 accounts to be able to gank a freighter.

So you win, simple isn’t it, but what does that prove?

[Karak_Terrel]

I said he can bring friends. It’s a multiplayer game you know

[Dracvlad]

Is it? Freighter ganking seems to be carried out in the main my single players massively multi-boxing. every so often the Goons do something, or another major alliance, I don’t think a single AG has that sort of pull.

[Karak_Terrel]

So ag is incapable of Freighter ganking is what you say?

[Dracvlad]

Nice trap by the way.

Currently there is one player in AG who could theoretically do it, he has combat toons that he has used in real fights and has a lot of experience doing massed repping fleets, however I don’t think he has trained up the Talos and T2 Heavy blasters. I think you would have to ask him.

But are you asking about the mechanical ability or the ability to write decent scripts that are not seen as botting?

[Karak_Terrel]

That is up to Ridley to organize. I mean that is part of the ganking to get the people together, form the fleet, keep them entertained, find the target… do the logistics etc.

Back in the day when Freighter ganking started in CODE. it was all fleets of individual people. We managed to do it. Ag said it is too easy, well ok, where is the problem then?

I clearly have the hard part, since I will have to stop them and I hear it’s extremely difficult and all game mechanics are stacked in the gankers favor. But I will give my best and if I fail I will admit that I was wrong

[Dracvlad]

Did you know how hard it was to get AG people to start ganking freighter wrecks several years ago, it was seriously difficult, I think that we ended up with five players, one of which was Herzog, I was in the process of training Lucas to do it, but was in the process of training arty and Mimatar to the required level. There are a limited subset of people that gank scouts, but that is it. I hope that answers your question.

EDIT: It was a major win for AG in that the gankers pulled a sleight of hand to trick CCP Fozzie to adjust wreck EHP. because they could not deal with a fast moving target. We even managed to get an increase in freighter EHP for our efforts when CCP Fozzie realised he had been had. Which many gankers bleat was a nerf to ganking, was hilarious.

@Herzog_Wolfhammer way to go!

[Karak_Terrel]

Well those people can’t be part of the challenge. For it to be fair and see if it is so easy as the other side says, both sides have to have no experience in the opposite profession.

I have no experience in anti-ganking and Ridley has probably non in ganking, so that is fine. But every ag he adds to the team will have to have the same constraints as will my members of my team.

[Dracvlad]

See if you can ask CODE to pay for 27 accounts for two months so Ridley can do this then, I am sure they can afford it.

[Fale_Einn]

It seems to me, and correct me if I’m wrong here, I haven’t done either (ganking or antiganking) that anti ganking would be the harder of the two.
With ganking you can go almost anywhere and find targets and if you know what you are doing you can kill them. But for an antiganker it logically seems harder to me because you first have to find gankers, and then you need to have the timing to catch them.
Is that correct? Or am I wrong, and if so, how?

[Karak_Terrel]

As I have said, he can bring friends and gank the way we did, no need to multibox. But they all need to have no experience with ganking

[Dracvlad]

Totally correct

[Fale_Einn]

Thanks, I’ve been reading back a bit and it’s been a bit of a ride!

[Jayce_Fitzpatrick]

@Fale_Einn

With ganking you can go almost anywhere and find targets and if you know what you are doing you can kill them. But for an antiganker it logically seems harder to me because you first have to find gankers, and then you need to have the timing to catch them.

It’s the same difficulty.

AG just need to scout for juicy targets, the same scouting the gankers are doing.

If they find a juicy target, the gankers will follow.

[Dracvlad]

Karak is an exceptionally able ganker, and someone I respect, but he is also a very good forum poster too, has me a little on the ropes in that his point that AG cannot gank a freighter would be true, but it is more of a question of will to do it rather than the lack of ability to do it. This is a friendly bit of banter between us by the way.

[Fale_Einn]

I know, you two are fun to read.

[Karak_Terrel]

@Fale_Einn

But for an antiganker it logically seems harder to me because you first have to find gankers, and then you need to have the timing to catch them.
Is that correct? Or am I wrong, and if so, how?

For some reason since we started to talk about the challenge that comes up as a main issue why anti-ganking is hard. I honestly haven’t heard that complain before. I must have completely missed all the request for tools to better track us down to then efficiently ag us.

Apart form the challenge to find miner gankers, which I can see, I wasn’t aware that ag finds it challenging to locate Freighter gankers, since they are always in a hand full of systems and have a channel that constantly reports if they are online. But I’m learning new stuff here.

I know you just try to scare me so I back down from the challenge… hahaha no

[Fale_Einn]

I’m trying to scare you?!
Hahahaha!
How am I doing?