State of Fabai, Aridia, and what should be done about it

(Eclypt) #62

Come now. Must I really explain why this argument is flawed? The fact one heresy is “not as bad” as another heresy means exactly nothing. One is either a heretic, or one is not. One does not get a free pass because “oh there’s actually this other guy and he’s way worse so really you’re not that bad”.

The Empire has a blood drinker problem. Or have you so soon forgotten the late Court Chamberlain? Who, I should note, the Kingdom brought to justice.

No one in any position of Theological power has said anything about Nauplius. Does this mean he is tolerated, embraced, and endorsed in the Empire? Of course not. He is a madman and no more supported in the Kingdom than anywhere else.

1 Like
(Diana Kim) #63

I understand, that tolerance is probably a worst of crimes and most of the evil deeds in our cluster are committed only because good people torelate it.

On the other hand, there’s a different saying, that the most evil deeds are committed with good intentions, and with this I also agree.

The truth is out there… somewhere, and most we can have is our opinions. And I have a very unpopular opinion.

Well, unpopular I believe among capsuleers - to give a fight only to those who look for it. Would it be by wearing an uniform of hostile entity (yes, it means I myself looking for fight), insults someone, threatens, or just blatantly attacks. But I am strictly against attacking or starting fights with those who are just minding their own business, build something, or… tries to approach me with peaceful intentions despite their transgressions in the past. I just can’t attack or insult those, who want to fix their past mistakes.

So, how does that relate to Nauplius? Well, some people might say that I am too “kind” to Mr. Nauplius or trying to defend him - but most certainly it’s not the case. He has committed crimes and from my point of view committing a crime is an aggressive action.

But again - look at him. You’re calling him a Heretic, but he already renounced his “Naupliusism”. Instead of blowing up his own stuff (and staff) committing murder, he is targeting hostiles - even if it just civvies, even if it is inefficient both in way of choosing a target and a method - you can feel he IS trying to help the Empire, not himself.

So, maybe you will GIVE THIS GUY A ■■■■■■■ CHANCE? I don’t know scriptures myself, I can’t teach him anything - and teaching him proper military methods will be a crime himself, as I would assist a criminal. Maybe instead of blaming him and pushing around, you would teach him how to become a real Faithful, how to repent for his crimes, how he can become USEFUL for the Empire, which he clearly wants to be?

I have a feeling he is among of those, who will listen. I have a feeling he is among of those, who can be taught. Maybe I am wrong, maybe - since it’s just a feeling. You can call it intuition, or my somewhat ability of “feeling” aggression from people. I would, for example, never attempted to “convert” someone like Anabella Rella or other hostile personalities who frequent this media.

And with Nauplius, I repeat - yes, he’s wrong. He is terribly wrong. But he is wrong only because he doesn’t have a guiding hand.

1 Like
(Samira Kernher) #64

He was already told these things. He was told to give up his pilot license and turn himself over to the Ministry of Internal Order so that he can be put to penance under slavery. He refused to do these things. Like so many capsuleer criminals who have let their power go to their heads, he believes it is his right to dictate what punishment he faces, and chooses whatever brings him the least personal harm. That is not indicative of a man who truly wants to repent. Rather, a criminal scared of what he would face should he actually accept justice for his crimes.

7 Likes
(Sah Phyre) #65

Returning to the topic at hand, I’d like to comment - why Fabai?
Why does it have to be about Fabai?
The entirety of Aridia sans Mishi, Keba, Shenda and their surrounding systems is just as much of a lawless hinterland constantly living in the shadow of Blooder raiding parties.

Something tells me a land grab in a single constellation is not much of a solution to issues of regional security here.

2 Likes
(Diana Kim) #66

Well, Ms. Kernher, that might be the case, though giving up the license before being sentenced for that I believe is a bit too harsh demand. And as I have said elsewhere, I do not accept the notion of “rights”, and you just bring one more example of that. But anyway, it’s not really relevant now. You clearly know about his case way more than I do and I’ll leave it as is.

However, why won’t you yourself follow these ideas? I’ve heard Faithful blaming you in heresy as well. And with you both being Heretics, the treason is way worse crime than a murder, which makes you way more deserving these punishments than Mr. Nauplius.

1 Like
(Alizabeth Vea) #67

He is dead, and there was an inquisition to ensure that all his blooder minions were swept away. I wasn’t there for that, though. My reclaimation to the faith came years later.

Nice riposte, however you miss a key point. When Nauplis started out, King Khanid was not an heir and the Kingdom was not a part of the Empire proper, but a vague independent aligned state. As a Kingdomer, Nauplius was outside the Imperial jurisdiction. (I think. Things get really weird after Saint Jamyl invited Khanid back to the Privy Council but before her dear.)

So, Kingdomer Nauplius goes off and does all sorts of blooder stuff, which he freely posts about on public forums and nothing happens. Then Kernher spouts off her heresies, and the Kingdom suddenly discovers its orthodoxy?

Now, I don’t know why nothing has happened recently, with the Kingdom now just another house in the Empire and Nauplius under Imperial jurisdiction. I can speculate, but that is all it would be. I do know, for a fact, that King Khanid can declare Nauplius a heretic, and put the matter to rest, but does not. These attacks on Kernher seem like an attempt to distract from the Kingdom’s internal problems.

Kim-Haani, would you need my help in teaching you how to not betray the State? Or would you just know? The Faith isn’t some occult practice, whose tenets are known only to a few.

Gather a sacrificial blade and an unconsecrated golden goblet and strap an unconsecrated Brutor to the Altar of God (a consecrated Brutor would harm the demon to whom we will be offering the Brutor’s blood). Stand in the Circle, facing the Altar of God and the Triangle beyond it, and recite:

I invocate and conjure you demon Bhaalgorn, being with power armed from supreme Majesty, I thoroughly command you in the name of God, the Red God, the Blood God; I exorcise and command you demon by all the holy and glorious names of the true God that you forthwith appear in this Triangle in a fair shape and make rational answers of all that I shall ask of you; come peaceably and without delay, manifesting what I desire, being conjured in the name of the God who parts the creation, who drowns sinners in their own blood, who looses fierce anger, and sends the Ark of salvation. Why tarry, in the name of God, the Red God, the Blood God you are commanded!

This is the same as you downloading every top secret file you can get and handing it directly over to the MIO. If a Caldari did that, would you say they were just in need of guidance?

Also, heresy is treason. The two are the same. Literally.

2 Likes
(Diana Kim) #68

I am ignorant in questions of Faith, I never deny that. And I believe that the Faith should be taught, I don’t think you can just know it, well - again IMHO. Humans are like blank pages of paper and like sponges. You teach them logic and math like we do in the State, and they will look at everything analytically. You teach them freedom and democracy like they do in the Federation, and they will become freedom fanatics, unable to think for themselves. You teach them Fath and reverence to God, and they will grow Faithful. You don’t teach them anything, and they will grow… Republicians.

I just have intuition, and it rarely betrays me. And that intuition tells me that the guy WANTS to fight the enemies of the Empire, just doesn’t know how to do that efficiently. Nobody pushes him to do that, nobody forces him or convinces, he does that by his own will. So… maybe you will just let him and support? And execute him to all your heart content for all his crimes as soon as the war will be over?

As for the Bhaalgorn incovations… please forgive this silly Caldari, but I cannot imagine me taking that seriously.

1 Like
(Alizabeth Vea) #69

The Amarr do teach the faith like any other subject, maybe moreso than any other subject. It is literally impossible to be Amarr and ignorant of the faith. The faith is as integral to Amarrian life as the air we breathe.

Nauplius knew about the faith, but someone convinced him that the blooder faith was the ‘true’ one. And he fell for it.

You might not take his human sacrifice and blooder rituals seriously, but the people he murdered did. The Amarr did. Nauplius did.

1 Like
(Sah Phyre) #70

“Those who play with the devil’s toys will be brought by degree to wield his sword.”
Strike Commander, if a choice had to be made between death and having the Butcher for an ally, I’d pick death. At least then I’d face the judgment of God with a clean conscience.

Do not buy into the sentiment of being wronged and misunderstood he constantly projects. Do not trust the lies he spins. The man is a lunatic trapped in the prison of his own twisted mind, and he shouldn’t be allowed to twist anyone or anything else to go along with it.

5 Likes
(Diana Kim) #71

Please excuse me, I was just speaking out of my feelings.

1 Like
(Samira Kernher) #72

I stood for trial in court in my lord’s house in Thebeka. I was sentenced to exile and death if I should ever return.

My case in the Theology Council is still pending.

I flagellate myself regularly as penance for sins I commit.

And by no means is anything I’ve done – attempting to cleanse the Empire of the corruption that infests its upper levels – equivalent to what Nauplius did. In fact, you can thank him for putting me on this path. I am the consequence of him. A symptom. Because what he did, and the failure of anyone in official positions to enforce punishment upon him, even supporting him by selling him the slaves he butchers, is why I act as I do.

I do not consider myself a traitor. I am a heretic in that I reject elements of the current orthodox dogma, but we are also an Empire in which that dogma can be changed if it is flawed. I am a rebel in that I have supported armed resistance in the effort of promoting reform in a broken system, but my goal is to purify and strengthen the Empire, not destroy it. The Empire as it is today is flawed, and it is in need of change. It is my duty as a servant of Amarr and God to fight for that change. If actions I take in the course of that fight are wrong, and some have been, then I will face punishment for those mistakes, in this life or the next one.

3 Likes
(Alizabeth Vea) #73

The moment you worked with Del’Thul to attack Chakaid was when you committed treason. If you’d done it yourself, that would be a completely separate issue, but working with her crossed the line.

4 Likes
(Diana Kim) #74

I agree with Alizabeth on this one.
Standing alongside enemies of the Empire, especially when they fight against those who defend the Empire, that’s what constitutes a treason. And it doesn’t matter how much wrong they are or were, or how much wrong you think they were. A treason is a treason - the worst of crimes that any person could commit. It’s like murdering your parents because they teach something you believe is wrong.

So, when you’re talking about Nauplius, think twice, for you have committed crimes way more disgusting than his crimes.

Oh, please
Don’t blame others in crimes you have committed, just because they commit crimes too. You have your own head, you and nobody else shall take account for your actions. I can say, for example, that it’s gallente made me be hateful to them. But it doesn’t mean I have to become monsters like them or even worse.
I haven’t bombarded Gallente Prime. I do not even torture gallenteans like they torture our PoWs. Then why do you commit something worse (like TREASON) than those whom you hate?

1 Like
(Samira Kernher) #75

As long as my government betrays its own religious values and tolerates and facilitates the torture and murder of millions of people, the greater evil would be to do nothing.

5 Likes
(Kithrus) #76

THAT is the heart of the problem. No one expected you to do nothing. No one asked you to accept corruption. We of the faith must be ever vigilant and press those around us when we see danger. Maybe we are wrong, maybe our betters are wrong, but it behooves us to move them as best we can.

But you couldn’t accept failing even if the failure wasn’t yours.

Pride was your fall, no amount of self scourging will purge that till you accept the action wasn’t yours to take.

2 Likes
(Samira Kernher) #77

No Holder, and especially no Kingdom Holder, gets to lecture anyone else on pride.

1 Like
(Karmilla Strife) #78

The best lectures come from experts in the subject matter.

2 Likes
(Kithrus) #79

Either way, I’m not proven wrong.

1 Like
(Arrendis) #80

Now that’s just ridiculous, Alizabeth. Samira didn’t help Miz attack Chakaid, Miz helped Samira. What you’re saying amounts to 'it’s treason because you shot those Uhlans with an autocannon, not a pulse laser. What does it matter what weapon she used when she returned fire on the criminal who used chemical weapons to attack a civilian population center?

‘Well, you used ogres when you shot back at the bastards who rammed a Nyx into your people’s space station, you’re clearly a traitor!’

Doesn’t pass the smell test, my friend.

Yes you did. You all did. You expect her to do what? Whine about it, like you did in Kahah? How effective was that, Lord Crases?

That’s what she did. She sounded an alarm, and she got told to sit down and shut up by a man who turned around and attacked her family and countless other civilians with Deathglow. And the response from those who style themselves her betters? ‘Oh, don’t make waves, let Imperial justice find him’. Imperial justice. Faugh. Imperial justice couldn’t find its ass with both hands, a map, and two slaves to put its hands on its ass.

How about…

You know, good ol’ Alar’s punk-ass drinking buddy? The one Imperial Justice tried arresting on Thebeka, when they had a literal army there to help them, and a blockade, and he still managed to escape? How’s ‘Imperial justice’ doing on tracking him down?

No, Lord Crases, you do want her to just shut up, sit down, and be as utterly ineffectual as the rest of you.

3 Likes
(Diana Kim) #81

I see a certain minmatard is lacking basic education on what does flying WITH enemy mean.
While comparing Miz with an ogre sounds rather amusing and I myself could compare both Miz and Arrendis by their reasoning abilities with Ogres II, but however dense they might be, they’re still enemies, they are willingly picking hostile side and even if their intellect is comparable with Ogres, they do have their own Will, and that alone makes them different from simple tools. Even if they are times less efficient than the said tools.

Siding with enemy is siding with enemy, disregarding from which side you see: it’s a former imperian loyalist flying with minmatar loyalist. And treason is still the worst and most disgusting of crimes.