Surgical Strike Update Follow-up

Finally, a response, and from a dev I actually have some faith in. Thank you @CCP_Rise for listening to us and getting back to us so quickly.

I’m pleased you have addressed and revised some of our concerns and I think you’ve gathered that massive changes like this rolled out in one go just knocks everyone off balance, especially when the changes being implemented are difficult to understand for most people. Smaller methodical steps with regards to changes like this work way better and you even said yourself changes in eve have to be very delicately tuned…the sledge hammer approach just does not work at all.

I still think a 20% nerf to resists is way too high though, 10% would of been a good base and revise and adjust from there if required. Black Ops and marauders however are in a very poor place now which makes no sense as most T1 ships are stronger?

Also the Loki nerf is way too severe and the poor Legion that no one uses is now rendered useless, If anything the Legion needs a buff, not a nerf.

I like the capital changes though as something had to be done but sub caps were never the problem, please keep that in mind.

Good to see you’re listening though.

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while we do some investigation on the current state of high sec gank

If you need any help with this I would be happy to assist you

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You said:

The implication being that this change (to limit fitted Cap Boosters on FAXes to just 1) would make it difficult or impossible for “smaller groups” to fight against “the blob” on Fortizar grids.

But the very same battle report you linked shows that the FAXes had minimal, if any, impact on the battle.

THEREFORE, your concern trolling of “but the little guys” isn’t actually valid, since the change would impact FAXes who were already having minimal to no impact in the battle.

And just kill all newbies that can’t afford deadspace or factional resistance modes, really thoughtful, why not just say stop all new player joins to eve!*

Basically doing you suggestion will kill newbie survival rates and cause what small amount that gets past the first month of gameplay to quit.

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CCP have changed absolutely nothing while thinking this “update” will appease the playerbase. No way! After lockout is over better have good explanations to your Korean overlords why subs plummeted once again.

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Yes Capital survival, by the flow on effect is to all ships due to short sightedness.

And said capitals got an even bigger stick in the face.

They’re also trying to make fights include more things going boom period, not just more capitals.

How do you possibly think that those faxes had minimal impact on the battle? They kept us from whelping an entire sub fleet and created that cap brawl that is on the BR. That fight would have never happened without those faxes. The second TAPI undocked 140 arty maelstroms we would’ve decided to not even give it a shot. Currently our faxes (6-8b btw) can tank a t2 fort and rep subs somewhat effectively. With this change they wouldn’t even be able to tank the fort, let alone rep subs as the eat the 40k incoming dps. Without active apostles that can tank a fort, we would be guaranteed to lose 1 well fit buffer apostle every minute and 20 seconds of fighting to the fortizar alone. Why would we ever even attempt to take that fight when we have a guaranteed ~9b in losses for every 5 minutes we want to spend on grid.

NOT TO MENTION the pending 20% resistance nerf that was already going to make the above much much more difficult.

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How in gods name do you think the fight was created in the first place? Because the subcaps were able to tank the fortizar with the help of the blingy apostles. This is literally just an update which will push every group to spew out apostles instead of having a few well flown blingy apostles.

Oh well, TAPI

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And what happens if those ships that go boom as you put it happens to be your corp ammo supply boats, or replacement ship supplies?

Sad thing is very few see the long term flow on affects. These updates are very short sighted and no well thought through.

If CAP resistance is an issue increase the ships base resistances so any module installed have a lower benefit and reduce HP base to the tank the ship is designed to favor. Simple stuff, take a few minutes to apply an only effects those ships the changes have been made to.

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I guess a 2-4 billion Gila to run T5s was just too cheap for them. Stay tuned for 10b Gilas.

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So my two cents on these changes. I love them all. My only concern is that Faxs will become completely neutered (not the intended and very need partial neutered) by this change. as combat refitting is not really a option since unlike Triage of old most faxes have half as many hit points when fully tanked, and need a full min to even start refitting. So I say watch these changes carefully in the future. My gut tells me one of two changes will probably need to be made to keep it all balanced, 1 give faxes more hitpoints so they can survive the weapons timer to refit so we can get the triage refitting tactics of old back in full swing, or 2 let faxes refit even with a weapons timer.

Also as a note on the seeming desire to buff the meatgrinder side of eve pvp, a very serious look should be given to resupply logistics, as the biggest reason we don’t have long slug fests is that getting ships into the fight after losing one can be a logistical nightmare. Can we maybe get a cheap implant or drug that we can use that will instantly pod the user after ship death instead of waiting for 2 mins or someone else to do it, feel that would be a helpful change in improving that gameplay and in a easy optional way.

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You’re spot on. This change rewards having more faxes, not having better fax pilots.

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BAH! I hate it when Lucas gets a point.

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Dear CCP @CCP_Dopamine @CCP_Rattati ,

I’ve been following your development posts in relation to the game’s plans and patches pretty thoroughly. I hate to say it, but I’ve only really known you for three months and I’m already disappointed. I hate saying that. For the last three months I’ve wanted to invest my time, effort, money, and energy because I felt that I had found my game. Now, I’m not so sure that I do anymore. Here’s my issue: I genuinely don’t think that you have any idea of what makes your game great.

It seems that you (CCP) believe that pvp is all that makes your game good. Sure, that’s a small facet of what makes your game good, but honestly: if you think that, then you are just watching the surface of the water and aren’t diving in. I may be wrong, but I’m going to go along the train of thought that none of you live in any of the “empires” within New Eden. If you did you would probably understand.

What makes this game great (in spite of what you largely do) is that it is a microcosm of real life within a sandbox mmo. I mean, honestly, as far as things go your graphics and effects can be pretty and cool, but if you wanna survive in this game you pretty much can only see a box on a grid and some color indicators of whether something will try to kill you or not. So it’s largely wasted. Probably the main reason your player base is older since most of us remember Pong, Dark Castle, and a plethora of old games all of which the graphics were meh and required a fair bit of imagination.

A microcosm of real life. The people who live within the empires of this game are as loyal or perhaps more so than to the countries they live within in real life. There are spies, intrigue, business tycoons, raw material miners and farmers, producers, bands of robbers and murderers, and universe wide organizations and leadership.

People live in high sec because they like the safety of Concord and the content that is generated as a result of living in the metropolis it provides. People moved to Low-Sec in order to kill each other and perform clandestine activities without Concord annihilating them. People moved to Null-sec in an effort to carve out their own place in New Eden and even developed a half-assed equivalent of Concord’s own umbrella. People moved to WHs because they liked the uncertainty and danger of it and they suspected correctly that it was the best kept secret when it comes to safety, wealth generation, and the ability to go screw over any enemies within a few connections.

This is the only game that I’ve seen where there are diplomatic organizations within alliances and coalitions that are actually forced to perform real world diplomatic actions within a game. How cool is that!? As someone with an International Studies degree, this is fascinating. And you say that pvp and a higher chance to lose a ship that you have legitimately either put years of time into your accounts or real world monetary investment in order to achieve is what makes this game great?? I find that disappointing and shortsighted.

Hear tell from the forums and you would think that no one dies in Null-sec especially under a local friendly super umbrella. That’s incredibly laughable because if anyone looked at DotLan or zkillboard they would know that even in the best umbrella people die all the time. All. The. Time. Small and Nano gang pvp is always going on, cloaky camping is pervasive and people are always getting dropped like it’s hot.

Null sec is not safe at all and if you aren’t paying attention to local you will die. You will. It’s only a matter of time. I don’t care what ship you’re flying. Your umbrella may try to save you at their own expense, but you probably will still die even in a super. And the trade has a good chance of leaving the umbrella isk negative, even if titans are dropped because if a hotdrop is executed correctly then the umbrella won’t be able to jump fast enough to save the victim unless the victim and the umbrella are on their best game and usually they are not. The umbrella is made up of people and this game is made of human resources that’s really what the umbrella is. People who have been fighting as-and-against nano gangs, sub-cap fleets, bombers, and caps/supers off-and-on since the game was released.

Which leads me to my next point, nerfing the resources of this game. The real resources of this game are human resources. Each corporation, alliance, and coalition has people who’ve been playing this game for years and years. They have the knowledge and skill to make money, help newbros, and fight. Half of them appear to be quitting and the more resilient are biding their time. It’s sad that corps are losing these resources. Some can’t afford to lose them and will die. The resilient ones who have weathered the stormy seas you create will meta-game and end up on top. However you will lose people at the top, middle, and bottom. The middle and bottom are more likely to unsub which goes against your belief that new players are going to stick around.

I am able to understand your desire to nerf the ability to get financial resources in this game. Specifically, the mining and moon changes. I realize that there are plenty of billionaires and trillionaires in this game. Many of whom spend large amounts of time ratting, mining, and making production lines each day. They put in lots of time, money, and work. Considering the game has been out for over 10 years that’s to be expected.

However, the nice thing that I saw in joining this game was the ability to make money and work towards the caps and supercaps which are seen as the proverbial end-game. From a newcomers standpoint, a healthy middle-class with people buying and using lots of ships to get their fill of pvp. In real life, the global pandemic has caused economic quakes and then CCP throws the Eve economy into chaos at the same time. Honestly, you could have picked a better time to throw extra stress on your clients. It probably would have helped your reputation.

Within a month of joining mining rocks were nerfed. The truth is that you’ve already hurt the poor and middle-class of the game more than you can or will the tycoons of this game. Most of the real tycoons (like in any other mmo) don’t make their money mining, they play the market and have many different lines of income. In fact, all you’ve done is raise the prices of ships and most people don’t want to take out ships because they can’t afford it unless they have SRP.

For people who are saying “scarcity breeds war” and “bloodier battles”, people are largely turtling up and have no desire to lose their investments. When there is true scarcity and no resources to fight over, there is neither the money nor the motivation to wage war. The price of battleships and other subcap prices have largely increased so the price for fighting and waging war outweighs the benefit of doing so.

After the moon and anomaly nerfs, the general consensus is that Rorquals are almost worthless except as boosters and moon miners. What doesn’t seem to be talked about is the fact that Rorqual mining was largely low-stress and relaxing in that you could sit there and destress after a rough day or after pvping in fleets or nano gangs. With the surgical strike nerfs that are inc, why would you take a rorq out? You’re just going to get dropped and die is the current belief.

A whole branch of content that many people enjoyed is going the way of the buffalo. There is no real content being put next to it and saying “Hey miners, this isn’t as good, but its almost as good” which is what sanctum mining was. “Get gud, learn to leet pvp” is not a good response nor is it reasonable to those people. Positive reinforcement goes a lot further in most people than negative reinforcement does.

Now for supercaps. Your average supercarrier is 19+bil after being in a good fit not including implants. With the eHp nerf and application nerfs it appears that you won’t be able to effectively super rat anymore. Another loss of enjoyable content without an equivalent piece of content being handed out like anomalies filled with capitals that are worth doing even if they aren’t as valuable as haven running. If you are developing that content then you should release it when you apply the nerf. On the pvp side of things, if you drop a supercarrier in an escalation chain the probability of losing it is high and if it’s a bunch of subcaps you may not be able to kill them because you may not apply effectively. The eHp nerf and the application nerf, one or the other may have been enough. Now…?

Super carriers and titans look like they may become proverbial paper weights. A real world example is Nuclear Deterrence and Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaties. Titans like Nukes are the end of the escalation change. Hence, why the empires rarely drop them on each other. The empires often use expeditionary forces and throw away massive amounts of ships creating content against each other. However, if things begin to get too serious they will drop Titans in order to stop the abuse by an invading force.

These changes just make supercaps faulty nukes with overly large price tags that will not be worth using unless you generate other content that requires their use. The problem isn’t so much the stockpiles as there is no real content that requires their use and loss outside of putting down large hotdrop fleets and the incredibly rare war. If they are supposed to be nukes then you should have turned them into glass cannons that can lay waste to everything, but go up in a puff of smoke. Or you should have left them as the giant monsters they have been in the past. Your changes create nothing more than something in a similar vein of non-Proliferation. Shy of wanting to build vanity pieces titans and supers will probably non-proliferate. Welcome to Eve’s Cold War expansion, sounds about as enjoyable as it did during the 60s, 70s, and 80s in real life. Instead of creating more wars, it sounds like no one wants to fight a war at all now due to your content changes.

While I don’t have the actual quote, someone from CCP was saying how they believe that the small groups should be able to take down the empires. What have they built that should allow them to do so? Why haven’t they banded together in great coalitions to take down an enemy? Have they done the extensive networking and work within the systems and sovs that you CCP have created over the course of years in an effort to do so? If so, then they deserve the win and gf. It’s still possible, only a few years ago the Goons got kicked out of Deklein, the Fountain War, BoB, etc. Nano gangs and Cloaky campers are incredibly effective at killing people all over New Eden. I’m sure that between the two categories plenty of salt is sown and people unsub.

Speaking of something that should be balanced: cloaky camping. There should be a cloaking timer or resource consumption or some other finite resource that dictates the ability to cloak. The fact that people are able to nigh indefinitely stay cloaked, are unable to be scanned down, and appear to be easily abused by input broadcasting. Personally, I find input broadcasting more offensive than botting and I’m surprised that the high profile players who have input broadcasted haven’t been more severely punished. At least botting doesn’t outright directly affect the way I play the game or feel while playing the game. Especially in light of the supercap nerfs. There is no way to actually hurt them. They fly relatively inexpensive bombers. They have no Sov. They are in a mass majority of systems at the same time. And shy of the camper in question making a rare mistake it’s almost impossible to root them out and kill them. Even then, they haven’t really incurred any real loss. Under your idea of a perfect Eve with bloody battles and that the loss of ships should matter, shouldn’t they feel the weight of that loss just as much as everyone else in the game?

TL:DR, PvP isn’t everything. Eve is a microcosm of real life on a scale unlike anything seen in other games and the majority of your population is here for that whether they realize it or not. Super Umbrellas aren’t as effective as everyone seems to think and take lots of work and are largely isk negative structures. Human resources are the real resource in this game and you are creating an environment which is inhospitable to many Vets except the hardiest. Your nerfs hurt the middle and small fries, the poor will die and the tycoons will thrive because mining and ratting isn’t their bread and butter outside of buying low and selling high (Welcome to real life). Your killing of content without equivalent enjoyable content is demoralizing and most people don’t want to wait for you to get your business in order especially when it is the de-stressing content being removed (Don’t remove content without a carrot in the other hand especially when real life feels like it’s taking a big steaming poop on us). No wars appear to be in the planning process and I guess thanks for our paperweights…? Balance cloaking, I know you hate the Empires, but it really needs to be done for a healthier Eve. It’s more than a little ridiculous at the moment.

P.S. Hire me as a consultant, CCP. I would love to work with you on bettering New Eden.

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For those that missed it, in February @Lucas_Kell said in another thread that he has a 16 man fleet he uses for AFK mining in high sec.

He likes to delete his posts, though, so it’s not possible to quote where he said that now, but you may still see some of what he said in this post of mine where I was quoting him there.

Make of all of that what you wish. Taken all together, not exactly what a honest person would do…

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So what about t1 ship damage vs freighters? Say you increase hp by 15%, so we get another nerf in the end lol

What a joke

You can count freighter gankers on one hand now, do we really need another nerf after the last one that made almost the entirety of freighter gankers quit? For like 4-6 months there was 1 guy killing them lmao

Just admit you don’t give a ■■■■ about freighter ganking and want to kill it completely :rofl:

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The enemy neut ships will have to be prioritized in either use case. I imagine the community would respond to this as negatively as when I suggested Mauraders get some CAPWAR resists in bastion. Neither a Maurader in bastion nor a FAX is triage can get logi, and a Maurader is more liable to take a beating than the FAX - if the community won’t support CAPWAR love for the bastion Maurader, I don’t think they will support CAPWAR love for the triage FAX (esp since there has been complaints about it abusing cap boosters up to now, which is what the patch is supposed to address)

This is a bad solution to a nonexistent problem. SuperFAX would be OP by design and would also be liable to neut just as much as the original. The idea is to make FAXes MORE susceptible to CAPWAR than they are now - introducing SuperFAX that is both stronger than existing FAXes and less susceptible goes in the complete and total opposite direction.

The other caps can fit at most one capital-sized cap booster, and as many smaller sized as they want (Heavies).

I think the idea here is to decrease the extent to which a single player satisfies a fleet’s logi needs (ie: have other players also fly logi in fleet), and also to encourage gameplay around which targets neuting the FAX are prioritized to a greater extent than it is now. Batteries will now be used in place of additional cap boosters and they’ll provide CAPWAR resist that inherently softens the blow of the otherwise intentional nerf. To the contrary of doomsayers, I anticipate the reality of the changes to be as devastating as sesame seeds being removed from market.

There are numerous issues with this proposal. Many caps tend to use higher tiered mods anyway, even if they’re just super cheap Type-Cs, which are comparable to T2s and would therefore make this patch have zero practical effect if they used Type-Cs instead of T2s. Presently, higher tiered modules are overvalued in their contribution toward victory - your supremacy should come from your fleet’s coordinated efforts, not from sporting ultrabling. Lowering the effectiveness of higher tier resist modules (in addition to lower tier ones, mind you) makes the higher tier modules less important now than they were previously in terms of resist multipliers: given the nerf, there is substantially less to be gained in terms of resist multipliers than there was previously when using high end modules over low end ones. Given that their contribution to both buffers and resist multipliers has decreased, this means the success of your fleet will rely more on your fleet’s composition and coordination than quality of fittings, which is the way it should be.

In terms of active repping, direct active rep bonuses contribute more than passive resist bonuses on the hull. The hull resists themselves are not nerfed, and both ‘suffer’ the same in terms of additional resist mods, so the net effect from active reps is the same.

I consider this to be a very good thing per what I said previously. The market should adjust its prices to reflect the diminished utility of higher tier modules. This will happen organically

Worth looking into. CCP’s focus was on combat in general, and Rorquals aren’t represenative of ships present in combat in either cap or subcap fleets. But definitely worth looking into. Rorqual has taken numerous nerfs over the years, but if it’s still OP, by all means, let the nerfs continue. Rorqs weren’t buffed by this patch so I wouldn’t give them too much of a hard time :smile:

Fortunately

  1. Resource redistribution will improve the value of more common goods and make hisec mining an essential part of the EVE economy, even down in nullsec, to a substantially greater effect than it was previously, making it more profitable to miners. (Not saying it’s still a good career, just that it’s better
  2. CCP has indicated they are willing to consider additional ship classes in addition to BSes and freighters to get HP boostss. I am confident that they will boost barges (or give them some other form of defensive love)

EVE is an MMO. Perhaps CCP intends to make certain content merit fleets to a greater extent than was the case previously. Perhaps fleeting up is the way to go :smile:

I think an unstated goal here was to nerf Mauraders overall (in addition to bridging the gap between them and T1/Faction BSes). A lot of people say Mauraders aren’t fleet ships/don’t need fleets to operate… well… with these changes, that attitude is going to change, and I think that’s a good thing. Mauraders should work well in fleets, and now with changes like these they will be increasingly reliant on fleets to survive than they were previously.

+15% DPS to short range ammo is an indirect but pretty damn substantial nerf to opsec of freighters.

What’s wrong with stacking penalties the way they currently are now?
1st mod: 100.0% effectiveness
2nd mod: ~86.9% effectiveness
3rd mod: ~57.1% effectiveness
4th mod: ~28.3% effectiveness
5th mod: ~10.6% effectiveness
6th mod: ~3.0% effectiveness

Yet again, @Lucas_Kell hits the nail right on the head :+1:

Sure. Let’s take things out of context. Totally what he said. :roll_eyes:

I GOT YOUR BACK BRO

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That was an awfully long post just to say that you are anti-cloak and pro-botting…

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Hi CCP.

I feel you’ve missed the boat here.
The issue is not if it will take 20 or 17 ships to Gank a freighter.
But will it take 2 or 1 to gank a barge or T1 industrial.
Will tanking your barge save you from a solo ganker or not.

On the smaller gank end the 15% makes a dramatic difference in ships needed because it can push a single ship over the DPS mark needed, halving the cost of a gank, and also doubling the number of ganks that player can do effectively. The Freighter ganker is still going to be running the same basic operation with these changes.

Now, I think I’m a broken record at this point about Ganking not being a fun dynamic for both sides, and it needing more than EHP & DPS change bandaids to fix it. But for the purpose of this update it’s not freighters who should get the EHP buff, it’s T1 barges, ventures & T1 haulers.

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