The 9-4RP2 Collusions

(Rexxar Santaro) #1

The siege of 9-4RP2 citadel and events around it brought my attention. Somebody calls it is the beginning of another war, but I have some scenting feelings about it and Deja view, based on published articles and videos about Fountain War, Asakai case, B-R5RB, Casino War (WWB). So, I watched some EVE news last week, like streams and video records. Well, I like the Grath Telkin’s response on Open Comms Show (from 36:00).

I can say that man, among not so many in this game, won this ‘■■■■■■■’ game. He knows very well how the things works in EVE in general and SOV space partially.

Overall, the 9-4RP2 looks like a trap. In that system the Imperium have advantage, while GoTG and PanFam have disadvantage. Huge Imperium forces are based in J5A-IX, which are in their controlled space and are close to that target system. Moreover, maybe huge reinforcement assets can be hidden somewhere in Syndicate. The PanFam core forces are situated much further, so they have huge fatigue disadvantage in other unexpected scenarios.

In my opinion, from history of real military operations, it’s a trap in Cloud Ring. The plan is to exchange an ALT Carrier fleet with North Super fleet. Being outnumbered, many active corporation members of ‘North’ should drop Supers to sustain incoming dps. Obviously, the Horde can mobilize and bring all their active members on BC and BS. Karma Fleet + Horde + 2000 Carriers + 10000 Fighters + SnuffedOut bombs = max TiDi and random DCs. So, the Fountain War DC case can happen, which will turn into equation (1 DC Nightmare from Bastion / 1 DC Erebus from PL) + (1 DC Maelstrom Horde/ 1 DC Hel NC) + (1 DC Nidhogur Goonswarm/1 DC Avatar DARKNESS) + etc. I must admit the Asakai brawl, based on available videos, where many ships were DC due to very high TiDi at that time. The same happened during MTO2-2 battle few months ago, where GoTG lost 2 Carriers next day due to DC. Moreover, other strange things can happen, like missed pay tax to CONCORD in B-R5RB.

I can point many real battles in history, which looks similar. For example, Battle of Trafalgar during the Napoleonic Wars. That was a core battle to gain dominance over global waters during so called Colonial War era.

The Battle of Trafalgar (21 October 1805) was a naval engagement fought by the British Royal Navy against the combined fleets of the French and Spanish Navies, during the War of the Third Coalition (August–December 1805) of the Napoleonic Wars (1796–1815).

Twenty-seven British ships of the line led by Admiral Lord Nelson aboard HMS Victory defeated thirty-three French and Spanish ships of the line under the French Admiral Villeneuve in the Atlantic Ocean off the southwest coast of Spain, just west of Cape Trafalgar, near the town of Los Caños de Meca. The Franco-Spanish fleet lost twenty-two ships, without a single British vessel being lost. It was the most decisive naval battle of the war.

The British victory spectacularly confirmed the naval supremacy that Britain had established during the eighteenth century and was achieved in part through Nelson’s departure from the prevailing naval tactical orthodoxy.

Admiral Nelson died in that battle, but with him he sunk entire French fleet.

How Nelson won: His ships had addition steam engines, which granted addition maneuvering to his ships.

Something similar happened during the Battle of Waterloo. The Napoleonic power was based on artillery, but that day was rainy, and gunpowder was wet.

Grath is right. In this ‘Meta’ concept there isn’t any sense to project huge power on the ‘grid’ far away. This ‘Meta’, this SoV and these Citadels not allows to players and their alliances to perform a nomadic conquering campaign with all their force. With each system towards North for Imperium will be harder and harder to conquer enemy citadels and similar to it with each system towards South for PanFam will be harder and harder to conquer and gain control. To blow up a Citadel is required like two weeks, for all three timers, no matter you have on the grid 5 Carriers or 1000 Carriers. To win the Fozzie SoV with Capitals is hard and North forces have advantage over Constellations vs smaller Imperium fleets. This Meta is static for established SoV entities and impossible for the current nomadic entities. For SnuffedOut was unreal to conquer a SoV space at that time, so they joined to one of the strongest and most comfortable entity. EVE needs more strong SoV entities like 7-10, which have some conflict of interest based on the game mechanics, to make the continuum of EVE wars work without any kind of renegades or demolishing battles. With this SoV Meta the Imperium should roam North for one or two years, if opponents will not show in that Cloud Ring system. During this time their home systems can be attacked by different forces from Khanid, Curse whatever. It’s no sense to drop all force to defend a Citadel, a Keepstar even, if at MTO2-2 system a Keepstar was used like a lure for unimportant purpose.

I have neutral position to all SoV entities. If the North will horrible lose their power than EVE will turn cold for the next 2 years. If the North will bring light forces there, then Cloud Ring can become a battleground, like Providence. To make the SoV wars different, the current Meta mechanic should be changed, and I think at next FanFest some info about it can pop up.

(Tiddle Jr) #2

About the # of powerfull entities I’m not sure its possible due to mind relationships of known individuals. Cause blue doughnuts won’t save your safe world.

(Kumakatok) #3

Steam engines and nuclear tipped torpedoes. Also Nelson was an alien, and Wellington defeated the French and the wet conditions by having special boots.

Perfidious Albion indeed.

(erg cz) #4

It was decided by TiDi. TiDi won, game lost. End of the story. Players showed great spirit but hardware failed them, hard. I doubt anyone will make second attempt like that untill CCP will not fix hardware and make citadel repair timers obey TiDi as well…

(Tiddle Jr) #5

After client crushed and never logged back I was pretty close to rage quit.

(Rivr Luzade) #6

I believe that CFC will make another attempt, and the another and another. It is, after all, their goal to ruin your game. Besides, CFC managed to pause the timer with just 2 Jackdaw fleets and battleship fleet. It is not impossible to achieve the destruction.

Sure, as if 2 hours in tidi weren’t bad enough, now you want the same players to sit there for 15 hours or more? You must be nuts.

(Caitlin Viliana) #7

Fozzie already indicated in the forum thread about upwell changes coming soon that it would quote “not be a quick or easy fix”. He also stated that they don’t want to increase repair times. So why not reduce the damage required to pause under heavy tidi. No increase to repair times, and attacking fleets don’t need massive forces during a bash just to account for the loss of dps while reloading ammo/launching drones.

(Gadget Helmsdottir) #8

Um… the first steam powered ship was launched in 1809, 4 years AFTER the the Battle of Trafalgar.

Nelson won due to bucking conventional naval thought (making a single battle line) and splitting his force into two columns, and then driving them into the enemy line like a nail through a board - splitting up the French/Spanish line into smaller chunks that could be defeated in close range combat.

Unexpected tactics that complimented the strength of the vessels in Nelson’s fleet set up the conditions for winning. Superior seamanship and individual captaincy won the day.

–Historian Gadget

(Prt Scr) #9

The tidi fest was predictable, to many people in fleets using drones and fighters, what did goons think was going to be the result? They shot themselves in the foot and i lol. To take down a target like last nights they need to think outside the box and commit controled numbers of players not swarms of drones/fighters.

(Rexxar Santaro) #10

Yes and not. That’s the secret of that battle. The Nelson’s fleet ships had installed a prototype model of steam engines, while the mass production was implemented from 1809 as you mentioned.

(Rexxar Santaro) #11

I watched 4 streams at the same time. The Imperium News one, managed by Matterall, was cool due to many invited core EVE players as guests. The Mittani participated in that battle and in that stream shortly, at the end. He shortly explained the failed attempt to blow up that Keepstar. Their Carriers was unable to reload new fighters in those tubes due to huge TiDi, so fighter reinforcements failed. Many DC players was unable to log in.

I was on the grid during some big battles, like that one in D-GTMI. Even with 1000 ships on the grid the latency is high and many special ship abilities, like EWAR and overheating, not works as supposed. For example, with overheating you can easily burn all your modules unexpectedly. As a FC I’ll restrict anybody to use overheating in such kind of battles. I’ll suggest for everybody, who participate in the big EVE battles, to install 16GB RAM or above.

Due to this and other available videos about Asakai case, Fountain War, BRB I predicted insane TiDi and DC, considering that the Imperium is going to use Carriers. Many big battles were lost due to stupid poorly factors, like those I wrote about Trafalgar and Waterloo Battles, and the TiDi+DC factor in EVE is too obvious. It’s hard to explain how is to lock a target and locking icon appears after a minute, how is after reloading command done the operation can start after 2 mins.

  • Titans, AWOXes and Dreads + low/med TiDi of the North vs Imperium’s Carrier fleet should have been a lose condition for the North;
  • Carrier, EWAR + high TiDi of the North vs Imperium’s Carrier fleet was a draw case;
  • Carrier, EWAR + low/med TiDi of the North vs Imperium’s Carrier fleet should have been a win case for the Imperium.

If only Imperium could destroy that Keepstar, then they were free to drop those 300 Titans ready for it… in US time zone…

Just imagine, in local was over 6000 players, while on the grid was like 5500 maybe. This is the first battle in EVE where so many players were on the grid and, moreover, like half of them used Carriers (small or big). Every Supper Carrier has five tubes for fighters, while each contains 9 fighters in a stack. Each fighters stack can be considered like another ship (in a server’s program object) which doing damage, taking damage, has MWD, reloading and targeting mechanic. So, if to be more accurate, on the grid was near 6000 + (2000*5) = 16000+ ships!!! And it’s a rough calculation. It’s a lot of computation for a server and it’s a lot of data transferring to each player’s eve client (6000 in total). I think, if like 500 ships managed to use successful Smartbombs and bombers it should been turned into mass DC or server shootdown.

Well, Horde made a clever trick by using Scorpions, because the locking target procedure was very delayed due to high TiDi. Their task was to mitigate DPS on the Keepstar. I’m sure, with a different tactic the Imperium can blow up that Keepstar, but with this Meta, as I mentioned in the Topic, to move further to the North will be harder and harder, will require more and more: time, resources, dps, everything.

(Gadget Helmsdottir) #12


–Gadget, too, also likes fantasy

(Rexxar Santaro) #13

This was a TiDi-trap, as I mentioned. I think, the core Imperium leaders thought that the North leaders have very overestimated position over EVE battles and skills. They thought the North will come with all their Supers to show their power like at Auga Keepstar battle and during the final battle of Tribute campaign.

(Rexxar Santaro) #14

Dear Gadget, I wish you to become a Clever Gadget also and check everything not only in EVE, but in real life also.

There are a way too many historical events which are covered by lie, secret protocols and other cases due to political, propaganda, domination and other reasons.

If you want to know the truth about North Korea just don’t watch only TV or don’t read only MARVEL magazines. You have to ‘dive deeper’, you have to read a lot of historical, journalist texts from all nearby countries: Russia, China, South Korea, Japan and North Korea of course. You have to travel there and speak with those people, from different social groups.

If to be more accurate, the first steam powered ship officially was launched in 1807. To know more about the steamboats you have to read not from official political protocols of big heroic battles, but you have to study the life of Robert Fulton (here’s a simple biography).

Robert Fulton (November 14, 1765 – February 24, 1815) was an American engineer and inventor who is widely credited with developing a commercially successful steamboat called The North River Steamboat of Clermonts. That steamboat went with passengers from New York City to Albany and back again, a round trip of 300 miles, in 62 hours in 1807. In 1800, he was commissioned by Napoleon Bonaparte to attempt to design Nautilus, which was the first practical submarine in history.[1] He is also credited with inventing some of the world’s earliest naval torpedoes for use by the British Royal Navy.[2]

Fulton became interested in steam engines and the idea of steamboats in 1777 when he was around age 12 and visited state delegate William Henry of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, who himself had earlier learned about inventor James Watt and his Watt steam engine on a visit to England.

Fulton came to England in 1786, carrying several letters of introduction to Americans abroad from the individuals he had met in Philadelphia. He had already corresponded with Benjamin West, and West took Fulton into his home, where Fulton lived for several years. Fulton gained many commissions painting portraits and landscapes, which allowed him to support himself, but he continually experimented with mechanical inventions.[3]

As early as 1793, Fulton proposed plans for steam-powered vessels to both the United States and British governments, and in England he met the Duke of Bridgewater Francis Egerton, whose canal, the first to be constructed in Britain, was being used for trials of a steam tug. Fulton became very enthusiastic about the canals and in 1796 wrote a treatise on canal construction, suggesting improvements to locks and other features. Working for the Duke of Bridgewater between 1796 and 1799, he had a boat constructed in the Duke’s timber yard, under the supervision of Benjamin Powell. After installation of the machinery supplied by the engineers Bateman and Sherratt of Salford, the boat was duly christened “Bonaparte” in honour of Fulton having served under Napoleon. After expensive trials, because of the configuration of the design, it was feared the paddles may damage the clay lining of the canal and the experiment was eventually abandoned. In 1801 the Duke, impressed by Charlotte Dundas constructed by William Symington, decided to order eight of such vessels for his canal, but when he died in 1803, the order was cancelled. Symington had successfully tried steamboats in 1788, and it seems probable that Fulton was aware of these developments.

In 1804, Fulton switched allegiance and moved to England, where he was commissioned by the Prime Minister William Pitt the Younger to build a range of weapons for use by the Royal Navy during Napoleon’s invasion scares. Among his inventions were the world’s first modern naval “torpedoes” (modern “mines”), which were tested, along with several other of his inventions, during the 1804 Raid on Boulogne, but met with limited success. Although he continued to develop his inventions with the British until 1806, the decisive naval victory by Admiral Horatio Nelson at the 1805 Battle of Trafalgar greatly reduced the risk of French invasion, and Fulton found himself being increasingly ignored.[2]

Based on this example as an ‘assumption’, I can ‘affirm’ that the North won the Keepstar batlle not because some miserable TiDi, but because they were clever, used good tactics to mitigate dps and did all like heroes. This is a political side of that Keepstar battle.

Get up, Prince of Troy. Get up. I won’t let a stone take my glory.

(Gadget Helmsdottir) #15

NOPE. Don’t care about your silly space battle.
I was working, so I didn’t get to see the (not)stream.

I wish the victors and the defeated well.

I hope that technology (or decent enforced policies) can be used to mitigate the stagnation.

There will be a next time.

With that, I return to important subjects:
Naval History.

Which ships?

Which of Nelson’s ships had steam power?
That is what you posited; that is what I quickly denied.

Your own source (Wikpedia… Really? Professional pride hurt :sob:) says nothing about steam powered ships in Nelson’s fleet. There’s even a link to the Order of Battle.

–Sailmaster Gadget

(J/K about the Wikpedia - One has to use whatever is available)

(Tiddle Jr) #16

It was like 5000 people tried to fight side by side in a huge pool filled with honey. You barely can do anything.

(Old Pervert) #17

Shameless self-promotion of a potential fix to the whole TiDi mess.

I’m only linking it here because TiDi is a frequent topic in the thread.

(Rexxar Santaro) #18

It’s true and the TiDi issue in EVE persist since Fountain War, based on those official videos and articles. Since there in every big battle the TiDi played huge role, but in this Cloud Ring system it was crucial.

To solve the tech issue isn’t easy. It requires huge changes in EVE server code, used DB-servers and user client code. Powerful and fast servers are expensive and can cost much more than entire CCP company. Who can just pay for subscription. The user clients should support CUDA computation technologies.

CUDA® is a parallel computing platform and programming model developed by NVIDIA for general computing on graphical processing units (GPUs). With CUDA, developers are able to dramatically speed up computing applications by harnessing the power of GPUs.
In GPU-accelerated applications, the sequential part of the workload runs on the CPU – which is optimized for single-threaded performance – while the compute intensive portion of the application runs on thousands of GPU cores in parallel. When using CUDA, developers program in popular languages such as C, C++, Fortran, Python and MATLAB and express parallelism through extensions in the form of a few basic keywords.
The CUDA Toolkit from NVIDIA provides everything you need to develop GPU-accelerated applications. The CUDA Toolkit includes GPU-accelerated libraries, a compiler, development tools and the CUDA runtime.

The CUDA problem is: every client machine should have NVidia card and that card should be modern like NVidia GTX 1050, 1060, 1070, 1080 and the game client should completely compute visual objects in CUDA. The Radeon version has a different lite version based on OpenCL.

How CUDA works:

Also, the interface must contain some kind of AI to auto disable/enable game settings, in similar game scenarios: D-Scan, Local list, other slow UI, visual effects and animation, to display tables like lists (I have huge experience by developing DB and their UIs. The performance can be greatly improved by buffering them and by disabling table grid lines), and etc and etc.

(Old Pervert) #19

I’m certain CCP would have at least considered CUDA by now… I’m not sure how many of the calculations would really run faster on GPUs though. A lot of the load would be sanity checks. “Is the module off cooldown, what is the current transversal speed of the target”.

I agree CUDA could definitely help with the actual calculations, which likely represent a big part of the load, but another big part would not be able to play to a GPU’s strengths.

(Tiddle Jr) #20