The Argument for Mining Barges On Alpha Characters

The wealth of opportunities are centered around one specific area of ratting. That sucks. Giving them some more opportunities somewhere else wouldn’t hurt.

Being able to drive T1 ships is a reasonable expectation by alphas.

No. But they’re not meant to be.

You said a mining battleship can’t even carry a single cycle. I’m telling you they can.

So nothing.

The majority are just farming. And if they have barges, an even greater majority will just farm.

If so many Alphas are pvp’ing? Why are you trying to argue: ‘if they had more isk they’d pvp more’.

Ganking ventures and barges is far far more uncommon than you’re trying to let on. Ganking is so uncommon that CCP had to introduce a whole new NPC type just to do the job of gankers.

It’s about 8-9mil isk/h more for a venture. 25-26mil isk/h more for a barge.

They clearly are though. They are here whining that they want more.

As an alpha your ship will never be as good as the enemies because of skill caps.

But that’s the point. They aren’t meant to be happy. They are meant to want more.

And? So what?

Alphas aren’t designed to do either. They have access to combat ships so they can access a wider variety of pvp. Alphas have in fact been nerfed for ratting too well.

Please read and understand:

Alphas are not here to farm. They are not here to create wealth. They are here to create and be content. Their ratting ability is merely a by-product of giving them access to pvp. Of giving them the ability to destroy wealth.

Everything else: Mining, industry, PI, exploration, trading is either completely inaccessible or greatly reduced accessibility.

They can even day trip in WH’s. They’re even less populated.

If there was some kind of benefit to having more barges in the game…but there isn’t. Especially not botting ones. Especially not ones that aren’t paying any money.

That’s the goal. But it’s only any good if they create content or pay-up.

It’s hard to see how barges do either.

They can ban bots but alphas can just create a new account.

So ccp have to restrict what alphas can do or nerf the ships they use.

The monetary cost of omega serves as a ceiling for how much a player wants to multi-box as well as makes more money for CCP.

Multi-boxing alphas don’t have such a ceiling and don’t make CCP any money.

There is nothing good to come from mining alphas. Just more minerals we don’t need, more bots we don’t want and more semi-afk players not creating content.

If they’re not then there’s a point of introducing mining barges.

Because it’s true.

Well, the new NPCs are doing it right?

Oh ok. Well, maybe people will take more risk for 25 mil more isk/h but not 9 more.

Everybody wants more. I can’t prove that alphas are quitting but this argument is literally just “we think alphas aren’t happy enough about their mining career choices”

No, they’re meant to be happy and want more. I’ll repeat this. If they’re unhappy they won’t want to spend money.

Ratting too well is a problem. Ratting itself isn’t.

If they don’t create wealth they don’t get wealth. If they don’t have isk they can’t destroy isk very well. They’re a trial period and that’s how everybody treats them and that’s how everybody should treat them.

They’re allowed to do exploration (it’s quite a good way to make money as an alpha too), and a little trading. PI is blocked because it’s easy to bot and too many alphas exploiting planet resources makes it difficult.


Alphas being happy is benefit enough. Once more, alphas being happy mean they turn omega, bring content, and help the game.

You’re a player, not CCP. Also, they will pay up. Again. happy alphas mean they go omega.

Well, they can ban that one too.

Not if each account pays for itself In plex.

Ok. Not if they quit. Or be unha[py.

I’m saying mining alphas, not multiboxing ones.

A bit more.

More bots doesn’t matter. CCP is just gonna ban them all.

They sometimes come out of semi afk-ness to go on fleet and stuff. A miner isn’t a miner forever.

Those are probably more likely multiboxing omegas who aren’t mining barges because they don’t wanna get ganked. Let them be.

I’ll say this one more time. Mining alphas=happy alphas=more isk for alphas=they come on fleets and create content=they get omega.

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I would not mind having more fleets also, as in more players mining…so I dont have to.

Oh, ok then your a problem for threads like this, stop arguing for ALphas getting more or balancing them until you shut up and gear up and go get some experience then come back on the topic and speak… till then you are better seen and not heard.

Really? That may seem to cut into your profitability…

  1. I’m not the OP.
  2. Maybe you should make actual points.

actually it would increase my profitability.

and I made my point, cause you seem to be doing all the arguing with anybody and everybody…cept your arguments amount to nothing since you have no experience…go get some.


When we specifically don’t want alphas mining much, why would giving them better mining ships be a good thing?

And the reply is: so what? We don’t want many alpha miners.

You may also day alphas aren’t happy about their tech 2 ships choices. Same thing. suggests otherwise.

Pandemic horde. Karma fleet. Brave.
Faction warfare.
Suicide ganking.

This idea that you need much isk to pvp is a fallacy.

Their exploration is greatly reduced compared to omega though. For one thing, not being able to cloak is a massive disadvantage during exploration.

The part that I’ve bolded is exactly the problem mining alphas will have. So you do understand the problem, you’re just being annoying.

The way plex works is someone pays your sub for you in exchange for isk.

CCP make more isk from a plexing account than they would if it were subbed.

Everything down to the ship used, the tech 2 mining lasers and tech 1 medium drones suggests alphas.

This level of denial is getting at wilful ignorance.

Ok. So our conflict is there. We DO want alphas mining more. I gave my reasons.

But they are eligible to all the T1 ships except mining barges. They have reasons to expect mining barges. They have no reason to expect T2 ships.

Not saying you need much isk to pvp, but you do need SOME isk to pvp. At least enough isk to lose ships.

Not really. Many wormholes are empty and if you find the right holes and keep an eye on d-scan you’d never die. Also the risk-reward is good with a 3 mil exploration frigate.

Mining is more difficult to a bot than even ratting. Ratting: launch drones, set on aggressive, warp to site, get drones back, warp to other site, repeat. Mining: warp to site, lock, set prop mod on, approach, activate mining lasers, see the rock you are mining is gone, prop mod on, approach other rock, activated mining lasers, during this time keep checking cargo hold to see whether it is full, warp off, dock, move, come back repeat.

More actions=more actions that can be seen by CCP as bot-like (e.g. warping off immediately after cargo full but is afk most of the time) and banned.

Yeah, but we’re talking about a cap. If each account plexes itself the only limit is until there’s enough accounts plexing themselves with isk to increase the price of plex above their ability to earn isk.

Didn’t see those parts. Mind pointing them out? Also, tech 2 mining lasers are the obvious choice compared to tech 1 ones for anybody, and maybe they were training tank and mining skills so don’t want to spend 10 days for drone skills?

Noctis. Orca. Porpoise. Freighters.

And then capital ships.

They have no reason to expect mining barges. Instead everyone expected them not to the moment alphas were announced.

And alphas can get SOME isk.

Even mining in vents they get SOME isk. And they can make much more in abyss, ratting, incursions, level 3 missions etc.

Alphas isk earning isn’t something they need to worry about. Alphas earning more isk ratting than mining also isn’t a problem.

Mining was the first thing in eve to be botted.

So they stop plexing and pay CCP or drop to alpha and stop mining.

Either way CCP hasn’t lost anything.

There’s only one killmail linked in the thread.

Noctis actually should be alpha eligible for another conversation, orcas and porpoise have no point because alphas can’t boost, and alphas aren’t eligible to capitals anywhere else too.

It’s been quite a long time since alphas were announced. Some things should change.

They cannot support pvp just by mining, which is bad. Again, maybe they like mining and pvp, and have to rat to get pvp money??

Are you saying isk faucets, inflation and those bad things aren’t problems?

Was aggressive mode out yet? How do you know? Maybe they were just multi boxed afk miners?

If they stop plexing CCP loses and we as players lose. But my point was, they aren’t capped so much. They can multibox 100 miner fleets.

Thanks, but, what about my other points? About T2 miners being the choice for multi boxers and T1 drones being because they don’t want to spend time on it?

Things have changed.

But we’re not going to break the game so alphas can mine a bit more.

No that’s not what I’m saying.

But you don’t even know what you’re talking about. Inflation in eve isn’t out of control.

What I’m saying is you don’t make the problem worse by giving alphas barges as well.

CCP have addressed alphas earning isk via the VNI, the Gila, level 4 missions, medium drone restrictions etc.

Then why doesn’t everyone multi-box such fleets?

You don’t have points. You are barely making coherent arguments and are now depending on a logical gymnasium to argue that 8 mining apocs, equipped only with alpha accessible equipment are omega accounts.

You’ve had so many misconceptions about the economy, the game and player practices. I’ve given you quite a bit of new information in this thread, but you intend to power through with your argument via sheer ignorance. You are in denial.

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We’re not breaking it.

Why all those isk sinks then? Why all those nerfs to ratting? Also look at how wall the indices turned up because people started ratting? If we let alphas mine these indices would turn down and we’d have less inflation.

CCP has addressed EVERYBODY earning isk via those. They apparently and correctly think the VNI shouldn’t be better than the Ishtar and the gila is overpowered anycase. I did say that it’s easier to bot ratting than bot mining too.

Maybe their computer power? Maybe they were moral?

What’s that?

You told me “CCP wants this”, you told me “alphas mining would break the game”. That’s it.

Eve isn’t inflating.

Mineral prices are because a huge chunk just got taken out of the supply. But we wanted that to happen.

I’m not sure what sinks you’re referring to. CCP havent been trying stop the non-existent inflation. The ESS is about conflict drivers. It isn’t a sink as far as I’m aware.

I suppose there’s the trade tax changes, but i always thought the intent behind that was hurting the big boys more than the little guy.

Not everyone was affected equally.

The gila was more used by alphas than omegas because omegas can switch to an ishtar.

The VNI is arguably better at ratting now than it was. But it’s not as afk-friendly with a nerf to it’s drone bays.

The level 4 missions change and the medium drone restrictions only applied to alphas. Omegas were untouched by such changes.

So there is a cap? People CAN’T multi box 100 man fleets.

Your logic.

It does leaps and flips.

Yep. And I’ve argued to near exhaustion how.

You think isk is a massive problem. Whilst it isn’t great right now (I’m a fan of blackout). It wasn’t nearly as bad as minerals was/is. This inflation you think is happening, isn’t.

On the contrary we had significant deflation because of the over abundance of minerals.

Now, this ‘balance’ obsession you have between minerals and isk isn’t the goal of recent changes. We aren’t trying to balance isk vs minerals. We are trying to balance risk vs ALL rewards.

So there is no desire to create an influx of minerals into the economy. Let alone easily bottable ones. Not even afk friendly ones. None at all really. Not even a little bit. Nope.

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Also because of inflation.

It is a sink as well as a conflict driver. If they wanted a pure conflict driver they could’ve just put a 100 mil isk bounty on all nullseccers.

Omegas can’t do so well. People like ratting in Gilas because they don’t have to train for it.

Because they didn’t want alphas doing level 4s? Maybe they were too advanced, like alphas can’t rorqual mine for that reason.

There is a cap but it’s not enough. Multiboxing 20 is still bad.

Ok? It looks pretty.

Minerals are fine. There is “already replaced”, but that was true before rorquals (and they got nerfed).

Mineral prices are higher because we have less minerals, not because we have less isk. Look at the price of everything else (or stuff that’s not too related to minerals, like officer mods).

Ok? We’re also trying to balance isk. We’re trying to balance many things. Also, risk vs reward is already balanced. Even the stereotypically unbalanced risk vs reward things such as nullsec mining and incursions, we have a lot of risk with filaments, and incursions have high isk/h only because of the bling people put on there and the risk of talos ganking. (or else why are you not doing it??)

There’s an opportunity cost to that. The influx of minerals into the economy is low compared to how many happier alphas there would be.

True. But most big corps that offer SRP don’t have the fun kind of PVP with high amounts of risk. Also SRP means you wouldn’t be risking your own isk when PVPing, making it less fun (risk is what makes PVP fun, the adrenaline, also besting the other person UNDER ODDS and not blobbing the other to death).

EVE does not have significant evidence of inflation currently visible. If you want to claim this isn’t true and we do have a real inflation driver please provide a non investor and non supply/demand driven proof.

Also please explain how the ESS is a sink.

In short, you don’t understand what you are talking about.

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I think this is the greatest example of the dunning krugor effect i have ever encountered.

It would be easier to explain it to you if you were a child. But because you think you understand something you don’t understand, it actually makes it harder to explain it to you.

Do you understand the difference between inflation and the causes of inflation?

What is the sink part?

No. It was because they were being botted by alphas.

What is the difference between multi-boxing 20 and 20 separate players?

So why do you think we are doing the resource rebalance and CCP are mostly focused on nerfing mineral supply?

Yes exactly. Not inflation.

Not according to CCP.

Read this dev blog.

Compared to how many non-paying accounts there would be…?

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  1. Disincentivises ratting which decreases isk income (isn’t exactly a sink but still…)
  2. Part of the ESS money disappears after getting stolen.

Eve doesn’t have significant inflation because we have many things in place to stop inflation. I have no idea what those things are but there must be a reason why other games have a lot of inflation and eve doesn’t. But one thing is clear, as they limit the isk income or create isk outflow, players don’t like losing money so without them it’s better. Players like being given the choice, and that’s what you’re giving them by giving them mining barges, and they will stop choosing to rat.

Um… can you rephrase your question?

Look above.

Ok. I guess. Well, mining barges aren’t that far on the spectrum of mining ships compared to level 4 missions… Like I’m not advocating for alpha rorqual access or something…

Diminishing returns. It’s 1 person more happy vs 20 people happy.

They’re done. That’s why minerals are fine.

Ok. Please just ignore references to inflation and I’ll replace that with:

Alphas can rat or mine. They rat more because ratting gives them more income. Ratting causes inflation. We don’t see the inflation because CCP are taking other measures to reduce it. I don’t know what they are but they are taking isk from people which people don’t like. If alphas could mine there would be less isk created by them and thus we can have less sales tax and a more efficient market or something.

Not entirely balanced, but it’s balanced all right. CCP just want more balance.

People pay because they want more, not because they don’t have anything they want. They quit if they don’t have anything they want. There’s this balance. The same people who would pay for mining barges now are the people who would pay for exhumers when alphas could drive mining barges.

If the money just goes to someone else and isn’t destroyed that still isn’t a sink.

Seems like your attitude is to give players whatever they want. However, that’s the approach that put the economy in the toilet in the first place. This is how other games have run away inflation.

In other games it doesn’t matter so much because their economy is a joke in the first place. However it is very important in eve.

There are driving forces behind inflation and then there is inflation which is the result. I’m getting the impression you are mixing the two.

Mineral prices have inflated in the past few months from reduced supply. Not inflation. They were infact deflating hard before the resource scarcity.

General inflation, the inflation you’re talking about, still isn’t happening since everything outside of minerals is still relatively low priced to three years ago.

You can’t guarantee that stopping multi-boxers will be replaced by the same amount of players as extra accounts were lost.

More likely CCP will be losing 19 accounts to keep one person happy. So of course they’re in no rush nerf multi-boxing.


If they have what they want, how are they supposed to want more?

Exactly. So no extra money comes from giving barges to alphas.

Meanwhile there are the players that play for free (including bots) now producing 3x more minerals.

Its lose-lose.

You’re too worried about isk inflation and not enough about mineral supply.

Isk is relatively easier to manage. If CCP want to nerf isk income they can directly manage both faucets and sinks (like bringing back clone upgrades as an example). With minerals however it’s not as straight forward. CCP can directly manage the supply of minerals but rely on destruction to remove materials from the game.

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Your understanding of Faucets and Sinks seems to be fundamentally flawed. Faucets and Sinks refer to net asset volumes across all player accounts, not just the wallet/asset book of a single player.

Faucet: an activity that creates entirely new resources in response to player effort.

  • Ore/gas/ice produced via mining
  • Loot drops/salvage from PvE combat activity
  • ISK and LP rewards from missions/bounties
  • Research agent LP
  • Planetary Industry

Sink: an activity that entirely removes resources from the game in response to player effort.

  • Industry (research and production) and market fees
  • Reprocessing fees and % of material loss
  • Player ship destruction
  • NPC corp taxes

These are not exhaustive lists - I may have overlooked some items.

Some activities can be a Faucet for one asset class and a Sink for another (like NPC sell orders, which deplete ISK but generate materials), but everything above has a pure generation or loss mechanic where the net asset state ends lower (Sink) or higher (Faucet) for the entire game as a result of the activity.

ESS mechanics do not involve any ISK Sinks - at the most, they may be a ship or ammo Sink in the event there is PvP combat and player ship loss, but having ISK stolen from the ESS is still a net increase in ISK available in the game. Even if an ESS were destroyed and the ‘held’ ISK not paid out, it is not an ISK Sink because that ISK was never in circulation in the first place. It’s simply a reduction in the Faucet if that occurs.

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