The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Litsea_Reticulata

Ever heard of the system cost index? That little mechanic that makes it more expensive to build stuff as the volume of production increases?

Wat?

That doesnt mean what you think it means, especially not in regards to how many Citadels there may be in HS.

[Arrendis]

@Proteus_Onzo

Sure. Why not, but only HS structures.

Excellent. That way, if I declare war on someone, they can’t hide a structure from me by anchoring it someplace out of the way! I’ll have a complete checklist of ‘need to kill 4 astrahusn’…

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@Proteus_Onzo

See the difference?
You muddled the two together.

Ideas about Wardec Immunity costs have been addressed separatley.

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Arrendis

Excellent. That way, if I declare war on someone, they can’t hide a structure from me by anchoring it someplace out of the way! I’ll have a complete checklist of ‘need to kill 4 astrahusn’…

You still wont know where they are in HS.

And if they pay their Wardec Immunity Fee, you wont be able to aggress them, even if you find them.

[Arrendis]

@Proteus_Onzo

You still wont know where they are in HS.

And if they pay their Wardec Immunity Fee, you wont be able to aggress them.

No, I won’t know where they are. But if I’m the bigger group, I have more manpower to find them. And if I’m an experienced PvP organization, I know just how easy it is to find every citadel in a system. (Hint: It’s amazingly simple.)

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Arrendis

But if I’m the bigger group, I have more manpower to find them. And if I’m an experienced PvP organization, I know just how easy it is to find every citadel in a system.

Fine. Good for you.
But you wont be able to aggress the structure, if you find them, if they pay Wardec Immunity Fee same as you would pay to wardec them, unless you try to suicide gank the structures.

[Arrendis]

@Proteus_Onzo

But you wont be able to aggress the structure if they pay Wardec Immunity Fee same as you would pay to wardec them, unless you try to suicide gank the structures.

Right, but again, if I’m the bigger group, that fee represents a smaller percentage of my available money supply. In other words, per person, they’re paying more than I am.

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Litsea_Reticulata

@Proteus_Onzo

See the difference?
You muddled the two together.

Ideas about Wardec Immunity costs have been addressed separatley.

You confused the Social Corp idea, and Wardec Immunity Fee idea.
They are not compatible, or mixable as you tried to do in your muddled post.

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Arrendis

Right, but again, if I’m the bigger group, that fee represents a smaller percentage of my available money supply. In other words, per person, they’re paying more than I am.

They are paying exactly the same in isk.
Not more, or less, than you would.

[Arrendis]

@Proteus_Onzo

They are paying exactly the same in isk.

The operative qualifier there was ‘per person’. Let’s look at the numbers you’ve been tossing about: 200 v 10, 50 million.

The 200-man corp paying 50 million is effectively 250k from the pocket of each pilot.
The 10-man corp paying 50 million is effectively 5 million from the pocket of each pilot.

The corp with 1/20th of the pilot count is, per person, paying 20 times the amount that the larger group is paying per person.

To expand on this thought: This means that just by existing as a wardec corporation, I’m in a position to, effectively, hurt their bottom line. I am the embodiment of ‘nice corp you’ve got here, it’d be a shame if anything were to happen to it’ with which CONCORD would be extorting money from them.

The game needs more ISK sinks. Those sinks need to come at the expense of the richest players, not the ones just scraping by in HS.

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@Proteus_Onzo

This is mathematically false and you are confused, again.

You’re confused or being a troll…

@Proteus_Onzo

The Social Corp and Wardec Immunity Cost ideas are separate and antagonistic.

…as evidenced by this next pearl…

@Proteus_Onzo

A Social Corp of 50 members actively running L4s will pay FAR more in taxes, at 11%, than paying a flat 50mil fee for immunity a week.

You just said that Social Corporations and Wardec Immunity are separate, then used the flat 50 million fee from the latter to compare against the former?

The premise of a Social Corporations is that it should have the same negatives as a NPC corporation in terms of income taxation. Your above example is exactly why the tax needs to be a % so that the Social Corporation doesn’t result in the removal of an ISK Sink.

@Proteus_Onzo

Again, factually and utterly false.
It would introduce a new mechanic where a Player Corp can pay for wardec immunity, at the same rate it would cost to wardec them by another Player Corp.

Again you’re being deliberately ignorant or trolling, because % based tax already exists as.a mechanic in NPC corporations, while the concord war declaration/counter-declaration mechanic you describe does not.

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@Proteus_Onzo

Whereas a 50member Mining Social Corp would pay almost zero tax, as they dont generate isk.

How is that fair?

Its not supposed to be fair, its parity with what happens as a member of a NPC corporation. If you want % taxation to apply to things other than bounties or mission running, that’s a whole other discussion.

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Arrendis

The 200-man corp paying 50 million is effectively 250k from the pocket of each pilot.
The 10-man corp paying 50 million is effectively 5 million from the pocket of each pilot.

You ignored that it would cost the 10 man Corp MORE to declare on the 200 man Corp, overall AND from pocket of each pilot.

This just shows how utterly retarded and ass-backwards the current wardec mechanic cost system is.

[Arrendis]

@Proteus_Onzo

You ignored that it would cost the 10 man Corp MORE to declare on the 200 man Corp, overall AND from pocket of each pilot.

This just shows how utterly retarded and ass-backwards the current wardec mechanic cost system is.

Yes, I did. I ignored it because it is irrelevant. The fact that the current mechanics are inequitable doesn’t have any impact on whether or not the mechanics you suggest are or aren’t inequitable.

They would be relevant if I were claiming that your suggestions were, for example, worse than the current arrangement, but I haven’t claimed that, have I?

So: Rather than set up a straw man to argue against a claim I haven’t made, kindly address the one I have.

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Litsea_Reticulata

because % based tax already exists as.a mechanic in NPC corporations, while the concord war declaration/counter-declaration mechanic you describe does not.

/facepalm…
Which means it would be introducing a NEW mechanic, which you falsely claimed it wouldnt.

@Litsea_Reticulata

Its not supposed to be fair, its parity with what happens as a member of a NPC corporation.

/facepalm x2
First you say not supposed to be fair, then you say should have parity, which is fairness. by definition.

The Social Corp idea pays 11% of its income in tax, for wardec immunity, and screws Mission Runner Social Corps vs Mining Social Corps, and removes structure option and all other corp functions separate from an NPC Corp.

The Wardec Immunity Fee idea involves the same cost, as it would to wardec them, for immunity, and does not restrict the Player Corp in any way (except not being able to wardec during immunity).

This has been explained to you many times now.

To sum up:

1. Social Corp idea means you get an NPC Corp with your own name and logo. Thats it.

2. Wardec Immunity Fee idea means you can still operate completely as a Player Corp, as long as you pay a weekly fee equal to the cost to wardec you, except you cant wardec anyone else while under immunity.

What part are you still not understanding?

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@Proteus_Onzo

How is a new 10member Player Corp going to be able to afford to pay a group to defend them against PIRAT?

A new 10 member Player Corporation won’t be able to pay a group to defend their citadel against PIRAT, that’s the point.

Your proposed scenario is all wrong.

The 10 member Player Corporation should stay a Social Corporation and wait for someone with more than 10 members like PanFam to figure out if they plonk citadels around the systems they will have a very visible ( as it will be one of few citadels ) recruiting tool and means of generating passive income offering public office space knowing PIRAT won’t want to fight them.

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Litsea_Reticulata

A new 10 member Player Corporation won’t be able to pay a group to defend their citadel against PIRAT, that’s the point.

/facepalmx3…

They wouldnt have to in the Wardec Immunity Fee idea.

All they have to pay is 50mil a week to CONCORD, and they cannot be legally aggressed.

Paying a Merc Corp for defense would be in the billions of isk.

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@Proteus_Onzo

Number and type of existing structures can be included into the wardec cost, and cost of immunity.

Now you’re making assumptions on value again. A refining platform on a moon that has a 90% yield of veldspar won’t have the same strategic value as a one that yields arkanor or bistot. A fortizar in a backwater won’t have the same worth as one with a market module in perimeter.

[Proteus_Onzo]

@Litsea_Reticulata

@Proteus_Onzo

Number and type of existing structures can be included into the wardec cost, and cost of immunity.

Now you’re making assumptions on value again. A refining platform on a moon that has a 90% yield of veldspar won’t have the same strategic value as a one that yields arkanor or bistot. A fortizar in a backwater won’t have the same worth as one with a market module in perimeter.

I didnt make any assumptions on their value.

I’m merely suggesting and pointing out that the existing structures, of all kinds, that a Player Corp has can be included into the weekly Wardec Immunity Fee cost, or Wardec cost, however CCP deems fit.

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@Proteus_Onzo

Which means it would be introducing a NEW mechanic, which you falsely claimed it wouldnt.

WTH? New mechanics with new interfaces are bad. Takes more dev time, more qa, more testing, longer delays.

@Proteus_Onzo

First you say not supposed to be fair, then you say should have parity, which is fairness. by definition.

Making the war declaration system fair is a different task to creating a mechanism for social corporations.

@Proteus_Onzo

The Wardec Immunity Fee idea involves the same cost, as it would to wardec them, for immunity, and does not restrict the Player Corp in any way (except not being able to wardec during immunity).

And

@Proteus_Onzo

What part are you still not understanding?

This proposal would make structures invulnerable. Do you think CCP is really going to go for that?