Yes, but you want to destroy it. Since the mechanics dictate that you need to apply the 15k DPS for ~30 minutes, you need to bring more people. That in turn means, you can repair my attacks, which in turn means I need to bring people in to counter you.
I donât have more people. I have 35 people. We were attacking your keep for shits and giggles.
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I would rather have them in WoW as well.
But yes @Lady_Ayeipsia N+1 is a core principle of this game. Itâs not the only way to win a battle however in a structure grind it becomes the main way.
If we had a fight over a structure and team a) brings 100 people in high DPS ships by team b bring a thousand then team B would win.
Knowing this both sides are more or-less forced to bring as many as they can. Therefore I said in another thread that if CCPs response is more powerful hardware we will be back here one major battle after that.
Discussing ingame mechanics and not including players into the mix is useless. Any ingame mechanics is created (or should be) to be used by players and should consider their participation.
For example: suspect timer. This is completely meaningless mechanics if you remove other players. It only works because there are players.
Another example: security level of system. Without other players there is no difference between high-sec or 0.0-sec. Rats are stronger but nothing your regular lvl4-runner can beat.
The same with citadels. Yes, mechanically you can kill it âwith 30 dudes in stealth bombersâ but itâs only when there is no other players like you rightfully say. But we have players around and mechanics should be looked at considering participation of other players.
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I agree with that in part⌠if not for the fact that the discussion I had with Rivr was on whether or not the mechanics themselves necessitated significant participation by defenders. The mechanics themselves are for all structures, not just keepstars. Yes youâre likely to see players pile in on it, but not because of the mechanics⌠thatâs a pure function of the significance of the loss. Which is why for the same mechanics, you do not see that happen for an astra.
You can have any aggressive act in Eve trigger an avalanche of players. Again, a Titan jumping instead of bridging. Or a gate camp on a regional gate catching something blingy and rage-pings trying to save it.
As the underlying trigger for the discussion was TiDi/server lag/too many players, I felt it important to distinguish that the citadel mechanics did not directly contribute to this. A titan or supercarrier with 300b in fittings (just stuff officer stuff in the fleet hanger) would trigger the same level of defence response if said supercap were alive long enough for things to snowball out of control. Say for example, a spy attempts to awox it.
To say that the citadel mechanics caused the TiDi is not true. Yes, they came to kill something, but the TiDi and similar would have happened for any circumstance that brought those 6000 people into system.
Consider a âburn jitaâ event clashing with a âsave jitaâ counter-force, for example. I could totally see Jita exploding.
Thatâs a rather optimistic estimation. Iâd say itâs more like 90%, with the new players joining being increasingly more illiterate. But that doesnât mean we have to want them here or welcome them with open arms, instead of just telling them to go back to whatever themepark they came from.
Imagine a world where CCP would have cared more about the health of the game instead of catering to the stupid majority⌠EVE could still not only be playable, but also fun to playâŚ
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Tell it to those saying that the majority should be appealled to and High Sec should be safer and etc while ignoring that every thing introduced since I came back has been about high and the only change anywhere else Ive seen is a slow continual move to make null the most offensively boring and slow place there could be.
See not only do I have no idea how they would do that, I doubt you could find two people on the forums who would agree what it is.
I came back afresh and full of eagerness for EvE but now Im convinced it wont see 2020 in this state.
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CCP should have test this out years ago about building extra computer. When they say it gets reinforced and tidi going in to effect. More powerful server should have set in to help handle all that code from over 7,000+ users from the internet.
Take a team on the weekend, threw âKEEPSTARâ in the middle of a solar system, spawn â â â â lot of ships and command them. SHOOT the keepstar, watch the code like a waterfall, 
Then ask your self how should it be handled at a mass level. Money for more server power to handle all this code when needed, and teach it to split the code between â â â â ton of servers so it can keep up.
Complaining and making suggestions about things you donât understand the least about is the way to go, huh?
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I will just correct you : ATM nobody can.
Like someone noticed before, Blizzard canât.
Here is a hint (not by me) I found on a google search :
https://www.quora.com/What-laws-govern-the-network-and-computational-complexity-of-multiplayer-games
What that means is that for 7000 players you need 49* more computing power than for 1000 players, at best.
If you can handle 1000 players on a 1GHz core(hmmâŚ), you need a 49GHz core to handle 7k players.
At best.
This does not exist. ( http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-cpus,3986.html )
But isnât that a stupidity to allow 6000 to meet in one place (marketing ads) and after that they barely could do anything, and to stabilize it we had multiple dc. etc.
How many people had any real input at all in that fight, F1 reigns supreme especially in null.
I was in the scorpion groups. We had to protect the carriersâs fighters. For this we had to place ourselves from where we landed (3 places basically) towards where the fighters came from, while remaining at range from logis, adapting our overview according to what FC said was more important (actually only changed once in the fight), try to keep at range from spy (spy falcon with burst jammer), jam the fighters, keep an eye on machs and use cruise missiles on anything big enough to be worth it.
We had 8 jammers to use, each on a different fighter.
we started ~600 scorpions IIRC.
Does it give you a hint on what we had to do during those 8 hours ?
This is interesting read.
So why is it? If it canât be done,is anyone having the expectation it can be including CCP?
Unreasonable expectations are a sure way to let yourself and others down.
Also
If it is indeed true how can a gaming company claim it is possible and real?
Iâve seen stress test done on live servers to determine failure point. In that case it was 2,500. On a now 20 year old engine. Tbh though that game is pure â â â â for performance today as compared to 10 years ago at the time of the test.
That was 2,500 in one location within that servers world.
If you want to know why it is, learn computer sciences, algorithms complexity.
The matter is, as other people noticed, that in Eve you have a lot of entities. Every fighter, every drone, every missile, every bomb is an entity.
Itâs not âonlyâ 6k players we are talking about. Add in all the entities.
Nobody says it canât be done. As always, itâs a matter of cost ; so much costly that, as other pointed, even for Blizzard it is too much.
In many mmos, there are mechanics to avoid too many people. In DAoC, you were limited in the forts by the size of the corridors (and yet it lagged so much âŚ), meaning assaulting a fort with too many people gave same result. That is, space organization prevents (kindof) overcrowding by setting a hard limit on the effect of âstrength in powerâ.
Eve in
- in 3-D
- without space limits when it concerns citadels.
An example of improvement would be to use gates citadels, like in FW, so as to have several places to fight for the citadel instead of only one. eg the defender would have to navigate through several complexes (Ă la The Maze) with several entrance points to destroy specific objectives around the citadel. letâs say, 2 objectives to destroy out of 3 present for M, 6out of 9 for L, and 12 out of 18 for XL)
Another possibility would be to refactor the whole engine with a change of paradigm, eg instead of having one node that computes all the effects on the game, one node could be allocated for each entity. In effect it would be like video stream, or map & reduce if you know what it is.
So there is room for improvement, but this is a very complex issue. Adding more mechanics would also lead to more need for balance, and more modifications to more long-term cost.
Iâm not saying improvement is not possible. Itâs science, until we have proven it is possible OR that it is logically impossible, we can only say âwe donât know if we can do it yetâ.
To be honest since I donât work for CCP I have no knowledge on the architecture. I just know that the topic is actually very complex - and that so many people have no idea how complex it is.
Nice writ. Explained well thanks.
lol No on the technical side. One life is all I have. It all changes too fast.
Shame they canât tidi to parts of code and change it from the whole node.
Except the car didnt break, it just couldnt drive more then 5 mph 
But the car is still running and it didnt need repairs afterwards. We didnt break anything, we did a propper mass test, like CCP has never seen before.
Its 100% CCP that setup the game this way, i can agree to that. They provided the tools to facilitate these giant battles and EVERYONE knew (both ccp and players) that this wasnt going to be a pleasent fight. Hype just took over and people expected much more then any game can deliver currently.
So CCP needs to find a solution to this citadel strugle thingy and players need to remember that 5 years ago 3000 people would have crashed the entire eve server system.
Have some perspective and sense of realismâŚ
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Instead of dragging out the structure timer to match tidi, why not reduce the damage required to match tidi so just causing massive tidi doesnât totally make the attack an automatic fail as long as thereâs tidi?
Because anything but increasing the timer to match dramatically multiplies the power of Ewar, especially of ECM. If you are in true 10% Tidi, then 1 jam lasts 200 seconds. Now if the structure is not in tidi as a result, 15 minutes = 900 seconds. So 4.5 jams does the entire structure timer. If the server is to the point of dropping calls you are below 10% Tidi, more to like 5% maybe. In which case 1 jam lasts 400 seconds.
See the issue with doing anything but changing the repair timer to match Tidi.
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