The 'Hivaa Saitsuo' Usability

Rexxar_Santaro · March 26, 2018, 9:56am

I collected a dozen of both C3-A and C3-X Hivaa modules from this event already.
C3-A%20and%20C3-X%20Hivaa%20Saitsuo

I’m interested on how to use these modules now. They have very interesting buffs, which aren’t so beneficial in all situations. On most pure missile ships it’s better to use core Ballistic Control II or even faction versions, while on pure drone vessels it’s better to use Drone Damage Amp II or even faction ones. Obviously these Hivaa modules are good for hybrid fitted ships and, considering they are developed under Guristas concept, they are surprisingly useless on all Guristas ships - the drone buffs are a way to good compared to missile buffs.

I’m looking at SoCT. I tried to fit Sunesis, but overall dps sux considering the cost, compared to other destroyers. Well, the next one - Gnosis - shines! These Hivaa modules allows to build a terrifying HAM Gnosis now. The fit is similar to available ‘dual-rep hybrid turret’ PVP concepts. On the image below is displayed a heavy brawler cap stable fit, considering both repairing modules, MWD, tackling and medium neuts are on! The second cap booster can be replaced with MJD or Ballistic control systems on missiles range or explosion radius. The missile flight distance is 16km, which allows good control versus other Cruisers, BC, BS and Frigates at the same time. Even such horrible distance controlling frigates like Succubus, Garmur, Kestrel and Daredevil will not be able to stay in an invulnerable ‘dead zone’, considering drone support also. Due to the missile range the Diruptor is installed, but it can be replaced with faction Scrambler by increasing the overall cost.

The fit

Summary

[Gnosis, *Hivaa Saitsuo PVP Gnosis]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
C3-X ‘Hivaa Saitsuo’ Ballistic Control System
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
C3-X ‘Hivaa Saitsuo’ Ballistic Control System
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer

Stasis Webifier II
J5 Enduring Warp Disruptor
Medium Capacitor Booster II
Target Painter II
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I
50MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive

Prototype ‘Arbalest’ Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I
Prototype ‘Arbalest’ Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I
Prototype ‘Arbalest’ Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Prototype ‘Arbalest’ Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I
Prototype ‘Arbalest’ Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Warrior II x5
Hammerhead II x5

Caldari Navy Nova Heavy Assault Missile x2000
Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile x4200
Nanite Repair Paste x396
Navy Cap Booster 800 x24

My missile skills are mediocore - level 3 and 4 currently. So, the 500 dps isn’t high. Sadly, the EFT, Pyfa and Osmium apps haven’t implemented these Hivaa modules yet. If anybody has better skills (4,5), pls, share this fit performance here. The performance of this fit completely depends by skill levels of both missile and drones.

Does anybody know other valuable practical fits, based on these modules? For example, Minmatar ships like Typhoon, Armageddon, Prophecy etc.

Fluffy_Moe · March 26, 2018, 11:43am

They are ideal for the Gurista pirate faction ships, especially Worm, Gila and Rattlesnake. Not sure how it will play with Caps, but PvE fits may benefit as well.

The C3-X provides a DPS boost over a dedicated drone amp or ballistic control. The C3-A is not very good, maybe used on Worm where powergrid / CPU may be of issue ? Not sure I haven’t played with them that much.

Keep in mind that if you stack more then 3 of same effect module you get too much dimishing returns, so not woth it. But if you run a Gila with drone amps, then change 1 for 1 of these, it boots the DPS nicely, likewise with rattler.

Bring up your simulator again and plug it into a gurista ship instead of gnosis. I have a feeling I may hit over 1050 DPS on my gila with these but haven’t had the time to play with them yet.

Violeta_Vevimy · March 26, 2018, 6:18pm

Ideal for gurista faction ships, but since when you use gurista for its missiles?

The C3-X is a hybrid mod that suite hybrid ship like Gnosis. decent nonetheless.

Rexxar_Santaro · March 26, 2018, 8:58pm

Well, my current missile skills aren’t high, while drone skills are a bit better. Maybe this is the point. I used the HAM launchers with Inferno missile ammo. Both samples have the same missile buffing rigs. I got 696 dps with faction drone amplifiers over Hammerhead II drones, which is on 8 dps more than gives a C3-X fit. Let’s take into consideration that C3-X module is a faction type and enough expensive. We should compare it with another faction module. Agree, with better missile skills the C3-X fit can show the same or a little better dps, but no more.

Not only dps matters, but overall usability of a fit for its PVE or PVP purposes. The Worm has serious fitting difficulties for CPU, PG and Cap. It’s hard to improve significantly his dps with these C3-X modules. The Gila is presented. I haven’t a specified set of good skills to present it at max, but overall dps in both scenarios will not vary seriously. So, the C3-X module can’t be considered a core factor to choose him over a T2 or other faction DDA module on Gila. The Rattlesnake can show greater difference, but almost nobody using drones actively on a PVE one - only Cruise Missiles. A PVP Rattlesnake has more options.

A fit with Caldari Ballistic modules

A fit with C3-X modules has more dps (near 100) at the expense of Ogre II, which aren’t very usable

I mean, talking about Hivaa Saitsuo usability, in which cases we can replace other T2 or faction Drone Damage Amplifiers/Ballistic Control Systems in the favor of this C3-X module.

Now fit a classical Gnosis with Gyrostabilizers, Heat Sinks or Magnetic Stabilizers and that HAM one above with these C3-X modules.

Erethond · March 27, 2018, 3:32am

Almost nobody uses drones on a PvE rattlesnake?
Hum… I thought the heavy drone buff was a good part of why rattlesnakes were popular. What are they used for, their missile and resist bonuses?

Beast_of_Revelations · March 27, 2018, 7:21am

This has to be wrong. It’s a drone boat. Most would use drones on a PvE rattlesnake.

Fluffy_Moe · March 27, 2018, 11:45am

Depends, Rattler can be used in many ways and is for different situations. You can make an awesome brawler rattler with RHMLs and Heavies, a sniping rattler with cruise + sentries + mjd, many different combinations. In general you don’t use heavies on sniping fits because of drone flight time, but you can and its still done sometimes.

Gila is a bit different. I’ve had some very nice missle fits on Gila, this was when my drone skills were sub-par to my missle skills, and they did well. I could see this extremely useful in such situation. Or when you decide to go for extra tank or low slot utility and have less low slots for DPS upgrades, then its a great module.

For example, below is a pretty typical omni tank brawler rattlesnake, then same rattlesnake with one ballistic module replaced with the saitsuo, see the DPS increase ?

So it does increase overall DPS, but you can’t overuse it because then you’ll end up with too much diminishing returns, have to really think about it.

Rexxar_Santaro · March 27, 2018, 1:20pm

Yeah, you are right. I wasn’t accurate enough. I mean standard heavy drones like Ogre aren’t usable, because they are slow, they have low tracking abilities and will agro all rats on them. Special drone types like Sentry are used on snipe fitted Rattlesnakes and are well used on traditional Combat sites 9/10, 10/10 - small waves of big ships. In L4 DED or other Combat Signatures a huge drone tracking buff is required.

Thx for presented samples. Looks like, among Guristas ships, only Rattlesnakes benefits from these C3-X modules well enough, due to 6 low slot sockets. There are many options to build strong PVP Rattlesnakes with these Hivaa modules. So, the modules are quite valuable and their price worth it. The Gila’s drone buff of 500%! is a way to good to be replaced with missile damage buffs. With max lvl 5 Drone skills the drone Gila is uncontested.

Erethond · March 27, 2018, 3:34pm

Yeah, my question was rhetorical… Whether you use drones or sentry drones, you use something and that is a huge part of your dps. Both sentry and normal combat drones benefit from drone damage amplifiers and in this case, the C3-A or X modules as well.

In another thread, it was showed that the C3-X is beneficial over a 3rd drone damage amplifier for a gila unless your missile skills are really terrible since you only lose ~5% drone damage bonus on a module that already suffers from significant stacking penalty, but gain ~22% missile damage with no penalty (since you have no other module buffing missiles). It is quite worth it.

On a rattlesnake with the 6 low slots dedicated to damage mods, replacing either a BCS or DDA seems a lot less interesting since it will be the 4th module to buff either drones or missiles, so heavily penalized. The main advantage would be in freeing some low slots for other things, presumably shield power relays for PvE?

Rexxar_Santaro · March 27, 2018, 5:15pm

Sentry Drones are cool because they allows to hit even frigates, while they are flying toward you with null angular velocity. It works like arty weapons. DEVs just proved that they can implement better the AI of rats, aka - to fly toward you zigzagging with max angular velocity, to warp away and back etc. Thanks these concepts aren’t implemented, which makes Rattlesnake a very cheap and comfortable ISK printing ship in Null- and J-space.

This, I mean why Rattlesnakes works well with C3-X. This module allows us to play around stacking penalty. It allows to replace a standard damage module with a tanking one: Shield Relay (PVE) or Damage Control II (PVP).

The ‘Hivaa Saitsuo’ modules allows to improve greatly the Gnosis dps by reducing it tanking abilities slightly or to improve greatly the Rattlesanke’s tanking abilities by reducing it dps slightly.

Fluffy_Moe · March 27, 2018, 7:24pm

Its the same for Gila even with its drone bonus, just replace 1, but not all your Drone Amps. The DPS increase is lower, but still there.

DeMichael_Crimson · April 7, 2018, 7:28pm

I put two of the C3-X BCS mods on my Rapier Force Recon Cruiser and got a very nice buff to it’s overall DPS. In my opinion these mods are a great addition to the game.

QuakeGod · April 7, 2018, 7:42pm

I wish we had more hybrid modules like that. Maybe CCP will come up with some different ones for future events.

Do_Little · April 7, 2018, 8:30pm

Pyfa supports these modules so I tried my Gila fit to see how much difference they made. Numbers reflect All 5 skill level.

With 2x DDA II:

With DDAs replaced by 2x C3-X:

This is a PVE fit and I’m not opposed to using shiny modules - I can easily “afford to lose” this ship but 200 million ISK for 60 dps - not a chance!

[Gila, Gila]

Damage Control II
C3-X ‘Hivaa Saitsuo’ Ballistic Control System
C3-X ‘Hivaa Saitsuo’ Ballistic Control System

10MN Afterburner II
Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
EM Ward Amplifier II
Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Drone Navigation Computer II
Thermal Dissipation Amplifier II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Inferno Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Inferno Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Inferno Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Inferno Rage Heavy Assault Missile
[Empty High slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Purger II
Medium Core Defense Field Purger II
Medium Core Defense Field Purger II

‘Augmented’ Hammerhead x2

Inferno Rage Heavy Assault Missile x5264

Zhilia_Mann · April 7, 2018, 9:39pm

Assuming HAMs, the math very much favors replacing 1 of 3 DDAs on a Gila. Not so much 1 of 2, and definitely not 2 of 2.

Hell, replacing either a third DDA or a BCU with a C3-A actually puts you ahead. Splashing out for a C3-X is just icing at that point.

It’s also worth noting that the C3-X, while expensive, is cheaper than faction damage mods. Not the biggest deal, but it’s worth mentioning. Of course, they’ll probably only go up from here. I’m sure I’m not the only one sitting on a handful and waiting.

Rexxar_Santaro · April 8, 2018, 5:18pm

Rapier? Interesting

They are good and bad at the same time. Dual modules must be limited on available fits, otherwise the EVE will lose it unique battle concept - all available ships will be replaced by 3-5 trivial vessels like Ferox, Hurricane or Raven with dual modules by doing the same functions as any other ship. It will turn EVE into a boring ‘gray’ mess.

Rexxar_Santaro · April 8, 2018, 5:26pm

Thx, sir. Price vs performance is the main drawback of this module. Only very few fits worth using C3-X. Addition 60 DPS is valuable for a frigate class ship, but for a Cruiser or above, it’s not worth in both PVP or PVE area. For PVE it will let to finish a DED 6/10 or above on like 1-4mins faster, that’s all. The basic Gila’s fit provides like 600DPS, which is enough to easily pass 5/10 or 6/10 DED and many other combat anomalies in semi-passive tank or aggressive buffer- or active tank.

Rexxar_Santaro · April 8, 2018, 6:18pm

Thx Pyfa is updated. So, I wish to publish a set of my favorite PVP Gnosis fits at lvl 5 skill levels, without bursts, overheating, implants and boosters.

Hiva Saitsuo Solo PVP Gnosis
600 DPS/2417 Volley (20km range), 32k EHP/332 EHP/s, +85/-63 Gj/s (with Neut II, MWD, talking, dual rep on!), 1234m/s.

Fleet PVP Rail Gnosis
636 DPS/2310 Volley (15-30km range), 54k EHP/0 EHP/s, +49/-26 Gj/s, 1030m/s.

Fork Solo PVP Gnosis by PL
500 DPS/1600 Volley (12km range), 35k EHP/498 EHP/s, +49/-61 Gj/s, 1234m/s.

Top DPS PVP Gnosis
737 DPS/2364 Volley (8km range), 49k EHP/0 EHP/s, +49/-34 Gj/s, 1245m/s.

Synopsis

The C3-X modules grants to a PVP Gnosis very strong PVP abilities at the cost of ISK (96M/ISK per module!!!), which are hard to encounter. As a heavy brawler for solo PVP, he shows near the same DPS and damaging range as a fleet fitted one. Compared to him, the PL Fork or DPS Gnosis just losing at range control by 2-2.5 times more. What is the most interesting, the HAM Gnosis has higher Volley damage than Top DPS Blaster Gnosis of 2417!!! Well, active FC pilots knows very well the power of Alpha strike and how hard is to repair after that. He has the same max speed as Fork or ‘DPS’, but at the same time the top active tanking abilities as the PL Fork Gnosis (with T2 rigs) under cap stable mode. For fleet or gang battles the speed isn’t crucial (1000m/s is ok), but for solo PVP addition 200m/s can be crucial. It’s well known that a cap stable Neut fit is golden in any situation.

After all, the most interesting is their DPS graphs, which elite solo PVP pilots know perfectly and can turn a battle into their favor. It determines your ship performance on the grid, based how you moving your vessel relatively to your target.

About effective DPS and performance

Firstly. Let’s say our target is a Frigate or Destroyer, which orbiting (90 degree - worse case) our Gnosis with MWD or AB(1800m/s avg) with a signature 50 avg.

Secondly. Let’s say our target is a Cruiser or above, which orbiting (90 degree - worse case!) our Gnosis with MWD (1000m/s avg) with a signature 250 avg. The same graph is true in case if we will orbit the target.

This is how the max DPS from UI panels will be applied on practice. Well, HAM missiles shines at close range.

Chainsaw_Plankton · April 8, 2018, 7:55pm

It seems like a great module that should be great for a lot of ships, a typical raven will likely benefit from fitting one or two of these, buff the drones to clear the small stuff quicker. And something like a geddon or typhoon both have missiles and nicer drone bays so should benefit even more. And of course the rattlesnake which most have already talked about.

I have a few handfuls

Sure there’s a lot of places they aren’t a great choice but there’s a few spots where they work great, and with the rattlers drone HP bonus makes them very survivable. And of course there is the option to go with a gecko which is what I typically use.

Gleb_Koskov · April 8, 2018, 8:08pm

Apart from the Gnosis and Gurista ships being obvious choices, the Cyclone and Prophecy can also benefit from these.