The imbalance of constructive and destructive efforts in Eve Online


(Threm) #1

Something is wrong in Eve Online. It is a fact that the efforts for a productive, positive, constructive way of gaming are much higher than the destructive forces.

CCP, you wondering about the low player numbers? The reason is it requires high efforts to get productive and manage non-pvp content while it is very low effort to disturb and destroy other players productive activities.
New players do not leave only because of the old tutorial. Its also not the content or the visuals which are great. You cannot evade other players disturbance which cost them nothing but it cost you everything you have worked for.

Ready for some examples. Let look through.

The punishment for social misdemeanor is ridiculus and broken. Setting bounties is just an isk sink. Security status is telling nothing. Easy to gain, nothing to loose. The only exemption are the true -10 pirates in low sec. Kill rights are too easy to get rid of and too few available. Its contradicting that it shall support the innocent attacked, if they are not aware of the mechanics to make it public.

The inflation goes on an on. Do you hear of people still running lvl4 missions? Sure, there are still people using modems to connect to the internet. I remember times where a plex was 300mio ISK and people were indeed financing it by missions. Where is the update of bountys? You think that the opportunity reward of 50.000ISK for my first hands free eating of bubble gum rocks anyone? But bounty cant be increased because it would feed the inflation. The result is that the gap between new and veteran players is increasing.

Whats the crazyness about the citadels. CCP, I know you are burned by the experience that you think “Building titans is crazy, there will be only a few” and to underestimate the players power. But what the hell you think a Keepstar is 300mrd needed? This amount favours only the power blocks. What is the result? In Delve one Keepstar after the next is set up with the help of mining rorquals while the small corp community wont buy T2 rigs for its Azbel cause it makes after all half a Titan?

Next issue is the jump nonsens. A great idea, once the power blocks went out of control just to limit the jump range. In case you didnt notice: It takes a power block only 20 gate jumps with their capital fleet to move. But dont worry, it works on the small communities. Having fabrication bonus in 00? Great, pity its only for the local market. Because its take days to make a few jumps and costs hundred millions which render the fabrication worthless. Jump freighters, easy to gank and this ridiculous range. We are not even at far 00 and it takes 5 cyno chars and 2 hours of managing everything. Self sufficient 00? With hundrets of items needed, with minerals, reactions, PI, moon mining? What do you mean with self sufficient. The reality is that small comunities needs a strong logistic backbone to grow or, again, it comforts the power blocks.

It is hard to tell our new players that there are nice things in Eve but to explain also that they will have it only once. A Rorqual - a miners dream and its stay that. Not that the price is already a hurdle, it needed to have this ridiculous timer.
Understood, the idea behind is risk vs. reward. But it doesnt work. The power blocks can reduce the risk by their power, can make highly and unlimited use of it. By the advantage they gain from it, they reduce their risk further and increase the risk to the smaller communities. The consequence is that it comforts the strong, wealthy and it is denied to those who want or need to develop to larger communities.

Lets talk about whats going in Highsec. Again, two major developments that have been missed early to be corrected and are now a PITA: Ganking and Wardec. Ganking is developped to a large commercial scale. It is simply too cheap. The result are immens wealth from ganks that were used in return to lower the entry level for even more ganking. A gank in HS can still be a good option but it needs to require will and efforts by the attacker. It would be a true thing, if the attacker have even pay more for it but is willing to damage himself for the sake of inflicting damage to his victim. If it is less - its just a business case.

Highsec war (I have been a part of it for years) is required to manage conflicts in Highsec. But it became an entertaining and inflated system. CCP, you probably remember 2012 where you switched from doubling the prices for each subsequent war to todays fee system. Probably thought “no one pays several billion per week to have fun wars”. Again reality surprised, did it? A highsec war is not an instrument of solving local conflicts anymore, it has been monopolized and commercialised. It is the final domination of the destructive few over the constructive many in their very own enviroment, formerly known as high security.
The problem is that in a short sighted desperation to create and maintain isk sinks, it has been run out of control. Also. I am still wondering anyone is building up any citadel in highsec.

Sure, one can be proud of playing a harsh game. But it is a waste. A waste of the man years of game development. A waste of a gorgeous game concept. Where is the problem to allow a niche for constructive players where they are safe? Sooner or later they will take part in the destructive part but by their choice and their chance to rebuilt their powers if necessary.

I am sure I will receive mostly negative comments on this. We know how forum and social media work. The loud are prominent and create the impression of a majority. I dont care. CCP, what about the silent thousands of players that left Eve? I have seen many of the constructive players to quit frustated not because of the single loss but because of the perspective not being able to change anything about it.

Regards.


(Ramona McCandless) #2

Are you asking CCP or the populace? If you are asking CCP then you are in for a wait.

If you are asking the public, then you will most likely receive a lot of negative comments.

Id be happy to discuss with you if the latter.


(Black Pedro) #3

Really?

Most detached observers will remark that New Eden is currrently suffering from an imbalance of “constructive”player behaviour. Production continually outstrips destruction in most places in New Eden and our virtual universe suffers from a lack of wars/conflict/content of late. Highsec has been made almost perfectly safe, with CCP resorting to adding new NPCs to fill the role of antagonist in recent months, while lowsec is empty, and nullsec and wormholes stagnate. Don’t get me wrong, the game ain’t dead, but as far as I can tell no one is complaining about too many interesting things happening. No one but you that is.

Unless you can provide some evidence that there too much “destruction” going on, I’m just going to have to assume you are unable to find your way in the competitive game that is Eve Online. I’m tired of such games so let’s just agree that possibly, Eve might not be the game for you. Do what you want, but it seems from my perspective Eve isn’t going to change for you so if Eve isn’t “constructive” enough, you might want to start looking for another game.


(Do Little) #4

I recommend that you study the monthly economic report before posting on the economy.

https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/monthly-economic-report-november-2017/

As @Black_Pedro pointed out, you’ll see that the problem with the economy isn’t too much destruction but too much production - we need to double the amount of destruction to move the economy toward balance.

The claim that the economy is experiencing inflation is ridiculous. The consumer price index has been falling almost continuously since the game was released. The only in game asset that is appreciating is PLEX and the problem there is the huge surplus of ISK in the game - we need more sinks to soak up the excess money supply.

We are currently experiencing a blip in prices with the moon mining changes but that will likely go away in another month when the new refineries are up to speed.


(QuakeGod) #5

Elite Dangerous is that way —>

What you are wanting is a single-player game with zero risk. EVE is not for you.


(QuakeGod) #6

Basically, you are wanting a high sec utopia where you can build an empire and destruction/harassment is not allowed. EVE is not Minecraft. EVE is not Sim City. EVE is not a single player RPG. The same rules that apply to EVE apply to life in general. It’s a tough world out there, virtual or not. Suck it up, buttercup…


(Wanda Fayne) #7

I see more NPC corp characters now than ever. Maybe alts of character corp players, but it seems funny that these characters will never anchor a structure or POS or see any benefit to taxes or shared resources from a player corp. Is this because of blanket wardecs on player corps? I don’t see smaller player corps wardec each other for competition anymore. You either stay small (and off the radar) or join an already large group and absorb any losses without much risk.

I think I understand much of what you are saying and would agree in principle to it. There are many who will misconstrue or quote mine what you have written but I don’t think it fair to discount what I see as a long time in game and a hefty killboard of gamesmanship.


(Mr Epeen) #8

Last time I checked on my builder, he had well over a hundred billion worth of ships collecting dust.

Know why?

Much production + no destruction = unprofitable market.

While ganking is a poor mechanic at the moment, it’s the only way to save the game. Unlike 0.0 alliances, ganker corps are more than willing to lose ships. And losing ships is the engine that drives this game.

So fix the ganking mechanic by making it less profitable but easier to do and you have a reason for builders to build and miners to mine again.

Or CCP could actually…you know…fix null so it’s not the stagnant mess that it has been for the last few years. But that’s a whole other thread.

Mr Epeen :sunglasses:


(Aaron) #9

Low destruction could mean that the skill level is getting higher. Take a low scoring footbal or basket ball match, If the score is low then this means the teams have good defence. its not a bad thing you just have to be more innovative if you want to break their defence.


(L0ckAndL0ad) #10

It’s always been like this, and I doubt it’ll change. CCP is directly responsible for such atmosphere in the game. And with all the f2p changes, I won’t be surprised when EVE collapses. Again. (pun intended)

I was thinking about writing something like you said to CSM, cuz they’re after all our representatives. But knowing CCP for a decade, don’t really see any point. But to share with you, I’ll give you my list of what CCP does wrong:

  • CCP actively supports and promotes alts. To the point when it became a norm. They even give discounts for multiple skill training. As a person who plays with only one character, that’s discouraging. They balance the game with alts in mind. People with alts have unfair advantages. Can earn more. Can grief more. And CCP earns $ on that.
  • CCP actively supports and promotes griefers/scammers. Seen all those promo videos on the official EVE youtube channel? Disgusting. And with beforementioned discounts… you get the idea.
  • Their own motto is to HTFU. EVEN the “Broadcast for reps” initiative video starts with “we’re going to kill you” and stuff. When people who think about killing themselves are suppose to be watching it. WTF is wrong with you people?
  • They pour free stuff into the world with all these events. Ships, plex-related stuff. Fuel inflation. Mess with prices. Giving people a sandbox to play in and frequently smashing on it with their feet is not cool.
  • They do a lot of balance/QoL changes, some are great, some aren’t, but the EVE gameplay in general is pretty stagnant. I know EVE for a decade and can clearly see that.

Gotta push such feedback to CSM, but again, don’t think it’ll do any good.


(Black Pedro) #11

Professional sports leagues sometimes change rules when the “meta” gets too defensive and scoring stops happening. Why? Because too much defensive play is boring. You don’t blame the players for finding the optimal strategy for winning in situations like this, you blame the game and fix it with some rule changes.

In Eve, it is much worse as so much activity only goes on to support direct pew pew by building capability and replacing losses. When destruction stops happening, the trickle down effects on the game are serious as everything stagnates and the economy starts wobbling.

CCP seems unable or unwilling to shake up the meta to get stuff exploding. Instead, their design philosophy of late seems to be to just stuff the game full of wealth and safety, the exact opposite of the conflict drivers needed to get people fighting.

Ah well, I don’t envy CCP as developing such a complex and interconnected game cannot be easy. Still, some recent, and the upcoming changes for 2018 look like they are pointed in the right direction so perhaps next year will be the one the game gets back on track.


(Kyon Rheyne) #12

If they really do pay it, than it’s just excellent result. It’s a great isk sink combating inflation to some extent, and destroying things, at the other hand. 2 most needed things in New Eden in one package, just wow. You also can easily evade wardecs by dropping out from your corp. Corp comes with certain benefits which cost you.


(Mayhaw Morgan) #13

But, who is at fault? Who makes the game safer? Who makes the decision to produce rather than destroy? Who is ultimately the driver of the terrible peace and stability that has come to grip New Eden?

CCP can change their game however they wish, but it is not in their power to change the fundamental nature of mankind. He yearns for safety. Wealth. Control. No hard coded ruleset can resist such impulses for long. What can?


(Mayhaw Morgan) #14

The prices of things are falling.

The price of this thing is rising.

More money makes the price of things go up.

Lets rearrange these assertions to better compare and contrast:

  • Prices are falling.
  • Money supply is increasing.
  • Increasng money increases prices.
  • This price is rising.

^ One of these things is not like the others . . . is it time to play our game?


(Cosa Rara) #15

If anything, things are not being blown up fast enough.


(Kyon Rheyne) #16

Where exactly? If anything, it’s the regular demand/supply thing. Regular ingame goods are produced in huge abundance (as things are not being blown up enough), thus price on them falls. If nobody needs your goods, they cost zero isk (unless you’re marxist and believe in objective value of goods), as nobody needs them, obviously. If few people need your goods occasionally, then you either drop your price to arrange yourself at least some deals before your competitors will catch up, or fixate price at some level, artificially limiting amount of goods you put for sale, leaving the rest gathering dust in your hangar (and make your competitors do the same, or it won’t work). PLEX are not produced in enough volume to meet demand, so their price rises, as a lot of people needs PLEX and are ready to buy it even for ridiculous price (as they can afford it).

Overall, all prices go up, to some extent, as income of players in raw isks goes up constantly (Incursions and WH space blue loot generate additional influx of raw isk in recent years), just some prices go up faster. What is important is increase of rate of income of typical player to rate of inflation.


(Mayhaw Morgan) #17

Prices are falling.
Money supply is increasing.
Therefore, money supply increase does not increase prices.

Prices are falling.
Increasing money supply increases prices.
Therefore, money supply is not increasing.

Prices are falling.
The price of PLEX is rising.
Therefore, the price of PLEX is not governed by the same rules as the price of everything else.

Money supply is increasing.
Increasng money increases prices.
Therefore, prices should be increasing.

Money supply is increasing.
The price of PLEX is increasing.
Therefore, increasing money increases prices . . . of PLEX.

Increasing money increases prices.
The price of PLEX is rising.
???

LOL


(Rhalina Sedai) #18

Vanilla Eve anyone? The answer to the plex crisis lies in the far flung constellation of Delve, where the chomping of roids and moons goes on unabated.


(Takari) #19

This is really fault of the people being ganked, isn’t it? If someone carries more than it costs to gank them then they’re the reason the gank can be profitable. Considering the odds on the loot pinata, if this is big business then a lot of people are taking way too many risks.

Because a safe space will be bot-farmed to uselessness and rip through the rest of the economy.

A safe place cannot exist in the same universe as the rest of eve.

If you want to mine in safety, I recommend you check this out right here: Safe Mining


(Kyon Rheyne) #20

You lost me. I feel like you could make your point with much less words, yet decided to not do so, for some reason.

No it doesn’t. Balance of supply-demand define prices. If there are people willing to pay isk for some goods with more demand than there are goods - prices goes up. If it’s the contrary - it goes down. Thus, regardless of how much money is in the system, if a lot of people want to exchange them for plex, it goes up. If those who can “produce” plex can set some rediculous price and get away with that (still have stable demand and their competitors won’t decide to cut their price) - it goes up. And at the same time any other price of any other good in the game may go either up or down, regardless of plex’s price - depending on how much demand it sees and what is its supply. I fail to see what is it so difficult to understand? The fact I have 100000kkk in my wallet won’t affect market at all until I’ll decide to start buying stuff.