While I applaud any effort to retake the lost systems, It must be expressed that diplomatic means are almost certainly a wasted effort. The clades have themselves shown us that they have no interest in diplomacy and only respond amd respect use of force.
They have no interest in diplomacy, or you have no interest in diplomacy Mr. Aloga? The distinction here is… somewhat important I believe.
If the Collective is interested in diplomacy with the legitimate nations of New Eden, then it can start by unilaterally and immediately returning all twenty seven stolen systems to their rightful owners, removing all illegal Triglavian presence from them, reversing the corruption of their stars, and deconstructing the stargate connections that they have established between them while undoing the damage it did to the original stargates.
Anything less, and it’s a little hard to take the propsect seriously.
Sprinkle a bit of “Amarr” in there and you have yourself a Minmatar post.
But it’s all the same with the Empires and their pets. Hypocrisy, corruption and short sightedness. I commend Remilia’s optimism in her project but I struggle to see why the Collective would take interest in the weakest of the four dead Empires.
Well, I suppose if anybody would know a thing or two about hypocrisy and representing the other side…
I respect the sentiment behind your words, Amicia. It comes from righteous anger over a legitimate grievance. I also remain skeptical that diplomacy with the invaders is possible.
Perhaps for a very different reason. I see no leverage for us to threaten with. The only possible starting point seems to be appeasement, which is clearly distasteful and may be treasonous.
Speaking as a pragmatist and a diplomat in my own small way, these kinds of demands obviously will not work. This is the language I would use with an enemy cornered and under heel. But however justified the cause may be, this is not the situation.
Well… this statement bothers me a great deal… simple calculus tells us that functionally, it is incorrect. Each of the Four Contemporary Empires have long since past a point of critical growth, that, to exterminate or kill one, would bankrupt or destroy another, or more than one other. The moment each empire crossed the threshold of a Trillion lives, this was true. And I include the Collective in that calculus now as well, even with their hostile gains. We can talk ad nauseam about Existential Threats from one Empire to Another, or even external existential threats, or that ‘the old is out of time’, when frankly… reasonably… the only enemy truly left to the Empires and Collective is Entropy itself.
My errors of blind loyalty is for all to see, and I will forever have people grasp that low hanging fruit to remind me. Perspective of truths change with new information and I’ve come to realise this wasn’t the actions of a Kybernaut but of an unstable Caldari sociopath.
A Matari seemingly only interested in pointless aggression.
An Amarrian diplomat that only recognizes accepting unconditional surrender as diplomacy.
A Kybernaut madly gnashing and spouting nonsense about how superior they are to the big 4.
And, with all due respect, Suzaku-haan, a Caldari that views appeasement in diplomacy as ‘treasonous’. (Though credit where it’s due, you have been the most reasonable of those listed.)
Just need a Fed to chime in to have a full set of stereotypes in sequence.
This is why I have invited actual diplomats to handle these talks, not self-important independent capsule pilots.
Asking them to return the systems they invaded and asking for “unconditional surrender” are… not remotely the same thing.
But it shows familiarity with only dealing with defeated foes.
This is not a diplomatic demand as presented by Ms. Cora.
Its presented as a prerequisite to even begin taking diplomatic prospects seriously.
Seems pretty diplomatic to me. My prayer is that we never seek peace with these monsters until we have not only regained the occupied territory they overran but also have removed their ability to ever launch an invasion like this again.
But such things are indeed for the Holy Empress to decide.
With respect, Ms. Cora, I must echo the sentiment of Captain Suzaku, there isn’t the leverage to Reasonably make that demand.
However, where I disagree with the honorable captain, is in the specifics. Devil’s in the details, as they say.
The starting point, is recognizing something about the Collective, or… more specifically the Clades and Subclades. They are an information obsessed society. Data, is one of their primary currencies and diplomatic tools. Interestingly, not unlike the Jovians of which there is evidence they have relation or at least past connection to.
Diplomacy need not be done through appeasement, but mutual exchange. Every action they have taken, prior to, during, and even after the invasions, has been data collection orientated, whether observational, or direct. The methods, in some cases are… less than ideal, but its something we ALL have seen, and can recognize.
Cultural Data especially seems to be of some exemplary interest to them, but all data seems to have value, in my experiences dealing with them. Combat data, interpersonal data, pop culture, leisure activities, technology and application, novel interests… all of these things are valuable to be processed and examined. Some of their Subclades even have particular focuses on particular types and subtypes of data, as well as contact and exchange…
If you want to open diplomacy with them, don’t start with a demand, start with an exchange. You can make your demands later, or even work up to attempting an exchange on such scale your demand entails.
Appeasement per se would be treasonous. I’m not yet convinced it is what you intend, and that is why I continue to freely offer you the benefit of the doubt.
There may be some value to extract out of Athounon. My duty is to the militia and the Federation conflict, and it is enough work. This is your project. But if you will take a piece of unsolicited advice, I would handle this matter very differently.
It is unclear what Veles want planetside on this forsaken backwater. It may be valuable to them. It may be possible there is an outreach to the Federation, and this is also worth preventing.
Deploy a strike team to the planet. Annihilate any Federation presence and attempt to determine their objectives. Then, turn your weapons on Veles Clade and neutralize their forces. Capture as many hostages as possible and interrogate them with every means at your disposal to find what they want on Athounon. Obtain it. Then, offer it, or failing that, the hostages themselves to Veles as a bargaining chip to begin negotiations for the release of State citizens in occupied territories.
This is what I would do to begin diplomacy.
Lord Lok’ri is absolutely correct that likening my statement to one demanding ‘unconditional surrender’ is, at best, misleading. I would also like to point out that my statement does not suggest a willingness to only deal with a ‘defeated’ foe. No, it instead makes clear that genuine attempts towards diplomacy are best served when they are predicated on a basic respect for the integrity of the nations one wishes to engage in diplomacy with. A Triglavian Collective that returned the stolen territories and worked to undo the harm it had done across the lines of military, demographic, and logistical security would hardly constitute a defeated foe. Its homelands would remain untouched, as would its logistics, its martial capabilities, and its domestic sovereignty. What it would constitute is an entity that had demonstrated the willingness to compromise on the forcefulness of its territorial claims, even if it still maintained a nominal claim to those territories.
To make it clear, before anybody feels the need to draw any ill-conceived comparisons between the Collective’s actions in New Eden and Amarr’s ongoing dispute with the Minmatar Republic, Amarr has itself set the precedent for this. For example, the Yulai accords and resulting CONCORD frameworks, negotiated, signed and implemented by Holy Amarr, recognise the Minmatar Republic’s administration in the territories it knows as Heimatar, Metropolis, and Molden Heath. Amarr has not relinquished its claims to those rebel provinces, but it nevertheless recognises them as Republic territories via those agreements and, accordingly, limits its military operations to only those systems all parties have agreed to conduct them in via the CEMWPA (this is, quite frankly, the primary reason I consider the sheer amount of aggression shown by many Minmatar ‘loyalists’ towards CONCORD to be utterly perplexing in regards to how self-defeating it is. Attacking the one institution through which your supposed enemy actually recognises and supports your territorial claims. Genius.)
Ah, but it was not me advocating for diplomacy, nor was it us that made the initial demands, was it? It was the Collective that demanded our systems be taken from us. It was the Collective that determined that our security and integrity be undermined at gunpoint. It was the Collective that spat in God’s face. They offered no room for negotiation, no avenues for diplomacy. What you call demands from me are, in fact, merely statements pointing out that the onus is on the Collective to work towards meaningfully undoing the wrongs of the invasions if it or its supporters want diplomacy to win the day.
Ultimately, I follow Her Imperial Majesty in all things - now and always. If she were to determine that the Collective has done enough to deserve diplomatic rapprochement then I would support such an endeavour wholeheartedly. Until then, however, we will not relent.
That was very well said.
I would add that there is a second categorical difference to diplomacy towards the Triglavian Invasion and diplomacy between Amarr and the Republic. Namely, that the Republic started as a rebellion against Amarr, rather than a soveriegn entity in it’s own right.
The comparison that has some validity is the Pre-Amarr Matari State’s failed defense against the Amarr Empire of our Ancestors. Had that state sucessfully resisted the invasion, they would have likely made similar demands to Adept Cora’s towards the Triglavians as a requirement for diplomacy. They did not successfully resist, so the negotiations that occurred ended the soveriegnty of that state and negotiated the incorporation of the Ammatar into the structure of the Empire.
The Republic is a very different entity, a revolutionary state that started with no Soveriegnty at all and carved out a part of Amarr in a moment of Amarr weakness and Hubris. What happened after is as Adept Cora articulated. There is no real comparison to the Triglavian invasion.
The Caldari State’s situation is sadly much closer to that of the Minmatar Empire’s in the face of our ancestors’ invasion. But I truly believe in the ability of our honored allies to come back from this disaster and to drive the Triglavians back into the Abyss. And make no mistake, a cease fire at this point would be the beginning of the end for the State. The Triglavians need to be expelled from the State, or the State needs to find a way to bring the fight home to these monsters before there is any chance of an equitable peace that protects the soveriegnty of the State.
Glory to the Caldari!
As I said prior:
I’m sure the CEP doesn’t need to rely on your invitation or citadel. You’re just madly groping for influence and relevancy.
It is fantastic, though, watching you attempt to kiss two asses with one mouth at one time. Maybe this is the wonders of Bioadaptation at work.
I will highlight this because Lauralite raises a worthy point. This is also close (I think) to what Wing Commander Malitia hopes to accomplish with this project.
We can’t afford to lightly dismiss this approach. Mutual exchange is the traditional Way we ought to relate with outsiders. Even if we would consider it proper that the Triglavians reached out to us first, it wouldn’t change the fact that if there are rewards to be reaped, they would go to the first to swallow their pride and open the channel. If our theories about data as currency in the Collective are correct, the bid may even be trivial. We might imagine a trade of stellar navigation charts and planetary weather reports for revolutionary new technological blueprints.
Further, it has been two years since the invasion with no significant development. The war is at a stalemate. Some might say this is more than enough time to wait.
On the contrary I have a few points:
Firstly, this exchange remains highly speculative. We don’t have enough information to say whether it is possible. I can’t name a single specific thing the Collective wants from the State. I prefer to make diplomatic predictions on solid ground.
Second, while the employment of the trader, the diplomat and the artist may be similar, they are distinct. No one would confuse one for the other when choosing the right hire for the role.
Without starting a long logical train or splitting definitional hairs, this kind of “mutual exchange” is usually more appropriate to the entrepreneurial trader who brokers profit than the diplomat who brokers peace.
Even if this speculation succeeds, it is a very long way from the objective. Even now the Collective holds millions hostage in their conquered systems. To begin bargaining without this firmly fixed in view or even mentioned is like playing the hypernet with a scrambled warp core. You might make a profit, but you are getting no closer to your destination.
Third: It is reasonable for third parties such as the UNF to establish embassies for the minor Clades, though some might be offended, because there is not a condition of war. The status between the State and the Collective, on the other hand, remains mutual hostility.
Sadly there is a question of motivation. If WC Malitia has proven a sincere loyalty to the State (and I believe she has), she has done little to explain how far her loyalty to the Collective extends. One can’t help but ask which she would pick if the issue was cut to the quick. And why should the Collective be treated like creche sucklings? If the Triglavians are human, they understand a soldier’s duty. While they remain enemies of the State, treat with them from down the sights of an ion pistol. Then when honor is satisfied, extend the hand when they are in your power.
Data. This is not speculative, I lived in Pochven for over a year. Ripping data logs and Drifter Neurosynaptic profiles from destroyed wrecks and trading them for technology and schematics is a routine thing in the region. They even reward Kybernauts that tackle and eliminate perceived threats with caches containing more of this data.
When one understands how their doctrine of Proving functions, it is not difficult to see why. Even our dealings with the Jove, well over a century ago, involved similar transactions.
My goal is not to establish trade, for there is no need for that. Trade is already available. Triglavian facilities within Pochven will allow even complete strangers to dock and trade with them.
My goal is to find a solution regarding our stranded citizens and the eventual restoration of State administration over our lost colonies. What concessions from either side such a thing would involve is not for me to know or decide.
How is this still up to debate? I am pretty certain I have stated, publicly, over a dozen times at this point that my loyalty lies solely with the State. I understand the motives of the Collective, and agree that their stated targets, Drifters, Sansha and Non-conforming Drones, must all be eliminated. All listed entities are threats not only to the State, but humanity as a whole.
I hold the belief that we could mutually benefit with the Triglavians in eliminating those inhuman scourges from New Eden, but should any peaceful resolution prove unattainable?
Naturally I would start eliminating Triglavians on-sight.