Look: when I started playing WoW it was 2009. I gave up on 2010 for the reasons I stated above. I started playing GW2 in 2012 and stopped in 2013.
I started looking stuff about Eve in 2017 and wasn’t sure I would have liked it. I started playing now, on 2018. Unless this guy you are talking about managed to reach across me back in time and then remove any memories I had about him, then maybe you just said something wrong.
You know what taught me to look at World of Warcraft this way? World of Warcraft.
Look, I’m not saying it’s bad, far from it. There are a lot of ways to get good memories, and I had some too, even if I was in a toxic guild. Problem was, I couldn’t stand the work needed to be relevant. I couldn’t stand running the same raid over and over again, with people I didn’t like in charge, or grinding pvp over and over again just to be on the same level as people who started before me.
Some people could, and I’m happy for them. They managed to enjoy the game for its good parts, I didn’t.
Again: I don’t hate WoW, I don’t hate GW2. I just didn’t enjoy them.
No. Unless of course you talk about the quests or the disregard for explaining stuff like endless respawns. Then maybe. But that wouldn’t be because of some sinister ploy, wouldn’t it? It would be because I can read and I have a functioning brain.
Wrong. World of Warcraft has gone by pure inertia for a long time by now, and every newer MMORPG has had to get away from its model in order to survive. INCLUDING WoW. In general MMORPGs have become more and more marginal recently. MOBAs are all the rage now. League of Legends rules gaming culture with an iron fist.
And oh boy, if you believe Eve Online is full of cyberbullies, then FOR THE LOVE OF BOB never try to play a normal in League of Legends.
I installed it in 2012, 6 years ago. And in those years I must have played less than 20 games, because I was afraid of the monsters I had the misfortune to find on my team.
Please note the name of the person who posted this, the person introducing the World of Warcraft comparison is named “Ragionier_Sunji”.
Please note, that I am responding to Ragionier_Sunji.
Please note that the GREAT TROLL named “Teckos_Pech” accuses me of making a contradictory statement.
After which a flood of posts occur, aimed more or less at me, but which don’t say anything much.
I respond to the Great Troll Teckos_Pech. The response is straightforward and doesn’t require explanation. There is NO contradiction.
I then RESUME my discussion with Ragionier_Sunji by ADDING additional statements. >>>>
Based on the context, since Teckos_Pech did NOT introduce any statements about World of Warcraft and was clearly NOT interested in a discussion of marketing, it can NOT be assumed that this paragraph is directed at him. And the paragraph is clearly a RESTATEMENT of the earlier post.
As to “THEY” meaning CCP … I don’t just mean CCP… I clearly stated that it was a general practice engaged in by MMO’s that are NOT World of Warcraft. CCP Falcon IS a representative of CCP games and here is what CCP Falcon said, since you can’t be arsed to use the link I provided.
While every other MMO starts off with an intro that tells you you’re going to be the savior of the realm, holds your hand, protects you, nurtures your development and ultimately guides you to your destiny as a hero along with several other million players who’ve had the exact same experience,
CCP Falcon
Compare that to what Ragionier_Sunji said!
both games showed hundreds of people running around doing the exact same things you did. On the other, every time a story was involved it tried to insist you were the guy taking down villains and a unique hero.
Now, lets look at YOUR statements. (Do we all know who the word “your” refers to???)
YOU mention EVE Players. I do NOT!
You are talking about whether THEY … who? … EVE PLAYERS … have been programmed or not.
And it is YOU who say that THIS … what? … PROGRAMMING … whose programming? … The programming of EVE PLAYERS … can NOT be the subject of Blanket Statements.
Who are YOU talking about??? EVE Players, in general.
Who am I talking about??? I am talking to Rajionier_Sunji.
Your posts are really great and you seem to absolutely get the essence of what makes EVE such a great game. But let me tell you that any effort spent on trying to explain this to Auto is just wasted time.
He was once ganked in highsec and lost some hundred mil ISK, because he expected it to be 100% save. Then he unsubbed and now he trolls the forums, gets repeatedly banned for it and returns with a new char.
Well, you know, in order to realize that WoW and other MMOs suffer from this contradiction you don’t need a CCP guy telling you this. You only need to know how to read and have functioning eyes.
But then again, you misunderstand me. I’m not complaining about the fact the game tells you your character is special. Hell, in Eve Online your character is an actual DEMIGOD, part of the most privileged and feared class of New Eden. Even if you were a citizen of a theocratic, totalitarian and nationalistic society such as the Amarr Empire, once you become a capsuleer you can just give them the finger and do whatever you want. The text in some missions also shows you how disgustingly rich you are, even if you have just created your character.
Lore-wise, you are waaaay more of a special snowflake in Eve than you are in World of Warcraft. Even if WoW pretends you are unique and Eve does not.
The only difference is that Wow’s narrative is undermined by its own mechanics. Eve’s one is not. And you don’t need someone to tell you.
Probably, but I was amused by the fact that he thought I had been brainwashed by a guy I’ve never heard of before, that made me dislike WoW years before I knew what Eve was.
And I’m telling you I had never even SEEN such marketing before playing wow. When I started even THINKING about playing online games, most sandbox MMORPGs were dead. Kaput. Gone. The only remaining one was Eve, and I knew NOTHING about it.
Also, if you think that was in our culture, you are wrong. Again. Most marketing against WoW didn’t focus on that. It focused on the tab-targeting combat system. I’m talking about games like TERA, Aion, Guild Wars 2, games that actually came after WoW and tried to beat it at its own game by adding action elements.
Of the two, they even REDUCED immersion and advertised it by saying they removed stuff such as ganking, farming, organizing raids, wasting time for traveling and so on.
Only after that you had some games trying to re-introduce sandbox elements, such as ArcheAge or Black Desert. But guess what? Even those games weren’t that significant, considering they came from South Korea and Western audiences didn’t really like them, because they required huge amounts of farm, or had unfair item shops.
And, after all of that… can it really be the product of marketing if it’s FACTUALLY true?
He he is a crackpot who dreams up conspiracies everywhere so he does not have to deal with the fact that it is actually himself who is the real problem.
Listen. Like every consumer culture, gaming culture is heavily influenced by marketing. What that means … what I mean by that … is that many of the views, values, ideas, etc. held by gaming culture are actually the result of marketers repeating the same thing over and over again.
The first game to go into development in the Post-World of Warcraft era was “AGE OF CONAN.” In order to sell itself to gamers, the developers of “Age of Conan” began advertising that their game would ‘Fix’ everything that was wrong with World of Warcraft. and the problem with World of Warcraft according to this game studio was its STORY. Its lack of story and the fact that every character and player was just the same. “Age of Conan” promised “story driven content” and “unique character stories.” This “marketing” became so ingrained in player’s minds that it was picked up by other developers and World of Warcraft began responding to it.
Again, if you reread the OP of this thread Why does High-Sec Exist? and you try to read it with some understanding, what you will see is actual evidence that when EVE Online was released it marketed itself in the very manner that it will eventually come to criticize. Because that’s how powerful the snowball set in motion by “Age of Conan” has become. When EVE Online was released it told potential players that they would save all of humanity throughout the entire universe! And without the blink of an eye, or any scruples, CCP Falcon tells you that EVE Online has never done that at all!
Please don’t lose sight of the context. We are NOT talking about “tab targeting”, we are talking about your statements about “everybody is doing the same thing” and “everybody is supposed to be a unique hero.”
Is it “factually true”???
It is an Interpretation. It is the interpretation of Marketers trying to get you to be dissatisfied with one product enough to try their product. And it is powerful because to people with limited education it appears to be “true.” But if we were to speak philosophically, it is the very thing that more than 2000 years of philosophy has striven to teach you NOT to do!
A Painting is a sufficient example to disprove its “Truth.”
You cannot enter a painting. The medium has limitations. A mature, rational, modern adult would recognize and respect those limitations. Therefore, this particular criticism can NOT be derived from YOUR experience (do we all understand what I mean by the word “your”?)
You are being taught to hate World of Warcraft.
You are being taught to hate World of Warcraft by unscrupulous marketers who want you to try their much inferior product.
(Rather than launch into a litany of all the failed systems of EVE Online, I simply say …)
EVE Online is a collection of half-developed, failed systems.
There is a fundamental difference between what Eve did and what Age of Conan did though.
Age of Conan made the STORY more personal, but the rest stays the same. Oh, and by the way, AoC quickly failed and wasn’t REALLY that influential. Also, if you don’t mind, I didn’t even read forums back when I started playing WoW. Which I played because a friend of mine was into it. So no, I couldn’t really say I came in contact with game culture.
Of the two, I got in because I was influenced by videos like this (not this in particular, although it’s a fun little story of mean people getting their comeuppance):
Why you don’t think THESE videos didn’t play a role in it? Even more, once I started playing I also started looking up videos and guides. Which meant I was more likely to come into media like the one above.
Also, had YOU been paying attention, I talked about another post-wow game that did the same thing: Guild Wars 2. And of the two, I CLEARLY stated that Guild Wars 2 had this problem even more so than WoW, by failing to integrate the mechanics of the game. Had I been convinced by the anti-WoW marketing, I wouldn’t have given up on it, would I?
So it’s not being trained to hate WoW because it’s WoW.
It’s about two things:
Not enjoying the streamlined gameplay of those games
Not enjoying the fact that the setting doesn’t account for the mechanics and its implications. Which basically tells you “it’s a game” every step you take.
I’ve watched the two videos. One clearly states there are many like you. The other talks about the totality of pilots. And I’d argue that both are right: you are a demigod. You are a special snowflake. It doesn’t tell you you are the only one though. And, again, I don’t give a crap about what that guy said (to be fair, the part about everyone being the same is true, as I’ll explain later).
Guild Wars 2, instead, during the main story makes your character becomes the commander of an entire army and the personal confidant of a unique NPC. Even though there are thousands of you. See? there is a difference: one tells you that you are special, one tells you that you are THE ONLY ONE that did a certain thing.
With World of Warcraft the criticism is somewhat different. Considering it doesn’t focus so much on your stoy, this contradiction doesn’t seem too grating. Maybe sometimes it’s mentioned, but you can weasel out of it.
But it does another thing (like GW2 does): it doesn’t understand the implications of its own mechanics. It never mentions the fact that your character cannot die. Nor the fact that mobs, even unique ones, keep on respawning. It didn’t take much, just say “Event X happened, now some people don’t die”, kind of like Eve did. Instead, I can go into a dungeon and kill a named guy for good, except wait a day and the same guy will be there again. Had he been the wow equivalent of a capsuleer, that would make sense. But there is no equivalent in WoW.
And this is NOT an interpretation. This is based on what was in the text. And of what was in the game mechanics. Either something is wrong, or a lot of things haven’t been told. I personally didn’t like either of that.
Using your own words:
[quote]
A Painting is a sufficient example to disprove its “Truth.”
You cannot enter a painting. The medium has limitations. A mature, rational, modern adult would recognize and respect those limitations. Therefore, this particular criticism can NOT be derived from YOUR experience (do we all understand what I mean by the word “your”?)
[\quote]
Sure, but a mature, rational, modern adult would be able to tell whether that painting was made by Michelangelo or by Picasso. Or be able to tell what its subject is or how ambiguous it is. If you look at the “Monna Lisa” you should be able to recognize that it depicts a woman in front of a landscape, right?
All of this is for the feeling of being unique, which is mostly about the lore.
Now let’s talk about the “do the same thing” part, which is linked to gameplay aswell.
Here are two examples of differences of variety:
Can you reliably increase in level by doing something that is not combat related in WoW or GW2? Back when I played both of them, I hadn’t seen it. In Eve you clearly can. Hell, for new players combat is one of the least remunerative things you can do.
Is it true that, everything being level gated, you have no in-game rewards to explore zones that are below your level, which means you aren’t encouraged to play most of the map, except for sightseeing purposes? Again, When I played (3.3.5 wow and GW2 pre-HoT), yes. Even if GW2 lowered your level to the mobs in the area, that wasn’t enough to make it a challenge and rewards weren’t meaningful. In Eve… well, wormholes spawn everywhere, don’t they? That means a region that becomes emptied because otherwise unappealing can become extremely profitable exactly for that reason: wormhole systems will be more likely to be empty and sites will not have been touched.
This of course doesn’t mean that in WoW you are an absolute clone and in Eve you are absolutely unique. By the same fact that you are a person (unless you are an ANN :P) you are different than others.
But in Eve you have more options that are rewarded as well as combat and many places that will be populated by all kinds of players and thus will have their own story.
Tell me, how is this an interpretation?
The ACTUAL interpretation is giving value to these differences: “are those things good/bad?” “are they really that important?”.
And MY answer is: “I, at this stage of life, value immersion in the game world, so the fact that Eve lore is better integrated with the mechanics is a big plus for me”. Also, “I value challenge, so the fact that as a new player I don’t have to rely on combat to increase in power means I can earn money without grinding the most basics and easiest things first., and I can venture into the most dangerous zones in the game knowing that I can rely on things different than power to keep myself safe”.
Someone else’s answer might be different. He might be better at making friends and knowing people and thus be happy with playing WoW or GW2 and enjoy the social aspect, even if the game mechanics sometimes go against this (see for example flying mounts or teleports). At the same time, he might not enjoy the amount of study required to play eve, or he might simply not like starships. Or the fact that you create an avatar you’ll never ever see again. He might be able to feel unique by coordinating with others in a raid and being able to take down a boss that others have trouble taking down.
And I would see nothing wrong with that. Hell, I would ask him to tell me more about is adventures, to find out whether he had different experiences, or we just saw the same thing in a different way.
Despite your insistence do the contrary, I do not HATE World of Warcraft, nor I consider it an inferior product. I simply don’t play it anymore, because I played it for quite a while and after some time I didn’t really enjoy it.
And the same goes for other games.
First you are NOT using my words. you immediately follow what you quoted from me with “Sure, BUT” which means you are making a reference to the subject BUT you are going to say something that is completely different.
You not only say something different, you say something that demonstrates that you did NOT understand what I said at all.
Can we tell the difference between “World of Warcraft” when it was written by Chris Metzen and when it WAS NOT written by him??? Sure. Is the World of Warcraft written and overseen by Chris Metzen poorly written??? YES! definitely. does this have anything to do with what I said and what I was talking about??? extremely little!
So, basically, because you don’t understand what I said, your entire post is just a repetition of the same argument. Along with the fact that you continue to deny that you get your views, values and ideas from culture and are NOT deriving them from your experience, because experience could NEVER lead you to those conclusions.
Go back to School. Continue your education! Take up a study you’ve always wanted to but never had the chance to before! a Musical Instrument. Yoga! Anything!
And YES! I will do the same, I will begin reading good books immediately! Until I feel purged of any of the stupid and ignorance that may have rubbed off on me from these forums!!!
“Using your own words” as in using your own metaphor. I could have worded it better? Definetely! But considering how poorly your own posts are written, you are in no position to judge.
So, I did not understand what you said? You told me that “I am being taught to hate World of Warcraft”, that anything I disliked about World of Warcraft was due to outside influence and not due to the game.
You said: “It is an Interpretation. It is the interpretation of Marketers trying to get you to be dissatisfied with one product enough to try their product. And it is powerful because to people with limited education it appears to be “true.” But if we were to speak philosophically, it is the very thing that more than 2000 years of philosophy has striven to teach you NOT to do!”
I told you my reasons for why I liked WoW less than Eve, by referencing aspects of writing, mechanics, and structure of the game, stating that Eve OBJECTIVELY offers more of something, while WoW might offer more of something else.
What did I misunderstand? Are you implying that the fact that someone enjoys more variety a good thing is because I was brainwashed? I hope not, because that would clearly be INSANE.
You now, it’s funny you keep on complaining about cyberbullies and then insult me for disagreeing with you. Even though I tried to take you seriously and not just dismiss you as a troll.
I might answer you in tone, but I won’t. Maybe because I am better than you.
The latter phrase contradicts the first phrase. Tying them together via a conjunction does not change this. For example, He should be happy, but he was not.
We know you think CCP is terrible at developing games. That they are doing something wrong, but for the life of me I can’t figure it out. Neither can anyone else. The problem is you. You cannot convey your ideas well. Either you are so angry your posts come off as spluttery nonsense or you are just trolling.
And actually CCP tries to do targeted marketing. I know because when I am at work and read about EVE related stuff I would get EVE related ads everywhere. I noticed it and was bemused for a number of reasons.
I already play EVE.
I am quite familiar with statistical analysis, and in particular the logit model that is often used in doing this kind of thing.
It didn’t work very well in my case in that while I may have had a high probability of wanting to play EVE according to their model…the probability was an underestimate (in my case it is 1).
Further, the videos I look at stress various aspects of the nature of the game. A single shard–i.e. everyone is on the same server. That you can go and steal everything from an alliance to the point where it collapses.
Take for example the video Causality:
The there is the video The Butterfly Effect:
Okay, I did quibble slightly with this one. I did not think it was actually an example of chaos theory, or more accurately a dynamic deterministic system sensitive to initial conditions. Usually complex adaptive systems work on the “edge of chaos”…but it was a minor quibble.
Then there was the This Is EVE trailer:
Not all the trailers show this, but even when I started playing years ago my first time undocking I expected to be shot at as soon as I undocked in a rookie system.
And you also come off as one of those loons who views marketing as this method of controlling people, that there is some sort of puppet master like aspect to it. If it weren’t for marketing I wouldn’t buy this stuff…which is might be true, but it ignores a fundamental question:
Is marketing inducing people to buy things they just do not want to buy. Or is it informing customers about things they they want to buy, but were unaware of them.
Personally, I find the first narrative implausible because it means people are making purchases that are making them worse off. That people are incapable of taking care of themselves and are nothing more than children. Thus, I am more inclined to go with the second effect.
As for marketing being the general cause for the decline in PCU as showing at EVE Offline…I do not buy the marketing explanation at all. The explanation cannot explain the growth. If anything the early marketing was less indicative of what the game was really like.
You also assert that EVE is half developed failed systems. This is a load of nonsense as well in that that was never the intent of EVE. You have not shown us a half developed system and what it should look like in your view. You assert this with no support. With nothing to indicate how these systems should be developed. AFAICR you haven’t even presented such systems.
You posts are just incoherent and inchoate ramblings.
BUT 
