I, for one, hope to see more quality posting from Davlos.
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Jason, does it really need to be pointed out that you are comparing a terrorist organisation to an official arm of the government?
Congratulations on your governments secret police not quite being as awful as the Templis Dragonaur. Maybe next year they can try and up their game to not being as awful as the Angel Syndicate or Coreli?
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âMy government.â
Oh how adorable is this notion. Youâve known me a while, Pieter, come on.
And letâs not forget, if weâre going to play the nationalism game, that the Templis are still your nationâs problem. People in glass houses shouldnât throw stones. You yourself just admitted implicitly that your Dragonaurs are worse than âourâ (again, l.o.l.) Black Eagles. So what is your point? If itâs âtheyâre both badâ, congratulations, we obviously agree and you brought nothing to this discussion.
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Itâs that one is a terrorist organisation, hunted by our government and that the other is an ARM of the Fed government with health care and long service awards and medals for the most dissidents liquidated in a reporting period.
But yeah - both are bad.
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I like how everyone just jerks off on how the Black Eagles are the worst thing in all of super duper forever and ever and ever, except each nation has their own secret police to varying levels of publicity. Does anyone forget the Empire has the MIO? That the Stateâs megacorps have their own independent black-bag groups? That⌠actually, I donât know what the Republic has. Attitude? Something.
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Valkeers sorta fit that billâŚ
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Valklears are never the secret police, they are the elite troopers of the Republic military. You are looking at the RSS who, far as I know, havenât disappeared a tribesman yet, or working to undermine the Tribes.
The RSS is very, very shady, however. Thereâs always that persistent rumours that they did all kinds of blatantly illegal things such as, say, engaging the Angel Cartel for advantages.
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Uh ⌠Charles? Thing is ⌠the State isnât a democracy. The Empire is a feudal state. Neither promises or claims ⌠well, you know. âFreedom.â More, âduty.â If they see themselves as the heroes of their respective stories, theyâre stories that take a pretty dim view of what humans are like, individually: selfish and corrupt in spirit. Itâs a vision of humanity thatâs common to most of the cluster.
Isnât the Federation supposed to be, you know-- âbetter than that?â A risky experiment in (gods help us!) democratic rule? Letting âthe peopleâ decide their own fate?
If it isnât, what is it for?
If it is ⌠what business does it have, having something so State or Empire-like as the Eagles?
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Good point, Aria. Except itâs preaching to the choir. Very few Gallentean capsuleers Iâve met think the Fedâs in a good state right now in terms of its adherence to its own foundational beliefs. Very few Gallentean capsuleers Iâve met have a positive view of the Black Eagles. Itâs not us Gallentean capsuleers, ethnically, or in terms of national citizenship, who need to be lectured to. Itâs probably the average baseliner who just sort of shrugs it off.
And add to that, there is a very real phenomenon where capsuleers donât necessarily criticize the Fed because they think itâs somehow better in terms of its principles than others and ought to live up to that, but that these capsuleers view the Fed as somehow more evil than the others in some way or another. Iâd say your point of view is actually less common than you may think, even if itâs a more sensible one. I had one capsuleer tell me, rather delusionally, that the Federation intentionally created rogue drones to let them loose on the galaxy to kill anything that wasnât them, and that Gallentean races, as races, were ethnically culpable as a race for this. This person told me I was immoral because I was ethnically Gallente (which Iâm not even). And no, this wasnât Diana Kim or any of the people in her sphere of influence.
And Iâd say this happens because you can criticize the Fed and the Fed will allow, even welcome that criticism. Add to that, the Empire and State in particular have a more defined, rigid sense of national purpose compared to the Fed, which gives them more emphasis to focus on nationalistic propaganda, which may train these former-baseliner citizens-turned-capsuleers to view the Fed this way, as some sort of aberration because itâs so dissimilar from other governments. These other governments are not so receptive to this kind of âeverything you do is badâ criticism, and thus are seen as somehow âstrongerâ, which is a laughable notion when considered in this context. Youâd think if people criticize the Fed because the Fed will take it more openly than other governments out of a respect for free speech as a virtue, a decent person wouldnât exploit this to beat the dead horse, but rather would appreciate the openness. Nope, apparently people are as ape-like as ever, attacking anything that betrays a hint of âweaknessâ. So if you donât want the Fed to rapidly abandon its principles out of a sense of strategic urgency and become just like the other governments in their negative views of human nature and their âme firstâ nationalistic attitudes, Iâd address your concern not at those of us who are already unhappy with our government for failing to uphold its own virtues to the extent that is is failing to do so (some of us to the point of renouncing our citizenship), and instead focus your attentions to those who constantly hound the Fed for even bothering to try to be what it is.
/rant
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and always will be.
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I never said the Eagles were better than anything. I just get tired of people freaking out about the Eagles as if theyâre anything new. Yeah, Mentas is a bit of a nutcase (if I go missing, tell them nothing!) and his Eagles arenât the biggest about Freedom or otherwise. Iâm not about to defend them. Itâs just frustrating to hear, as if itâs some shiny new idea.
My (new) point is that if the State isnât a democracy and a function and faction like the Eagles would not only not be unheard of, pardon the double negative, but also expected, then why compare them to the Dragonaurs who then, by State standards, are pretty bad dudes? And yes, Iâm almost sure âpretty bad dudesâ is their official designation, but Iâm not fully sure.
Youâre pretty okay again.
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Canât say much about Black Eagles except that theyâre doing their job and i guess that their ways depend of their leaders⌠at least the gallente senate is in theory able to control their doings⌠if iâm correct but nevermind, thatâs their business to run intelligence as every State should do. Up to their citizen to say if theyâre acting according to their principles.
What I can say about the Dragonaurs⌠they are just scums and criminals from their inception, acting terrorist as their first doing and tagged terrorist as such by the State. How others see them, not really my business. The State see them as terrorists. As such, I wouldnât even compare them to any of our own intelligence service. I donât see why there is still a discussion on this point.
On a final point, I wonât give her the honor to name her but from former responses of her part I just can conclude that talking with this person isnât possible as she seems to not have full mind awareness. I donât even understand how she has been able to get her pilot license with such a low level of understandings. Iâm amazed how isk can help to get licenses.
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Sure, Charles - the Black Eagles are nothing new, and Iâm certainly not claiming that there isnât a Secret State Police organisation (or itâs Mega Corp equivalent) in the State. Everyone knows that the Black Eagles have their equivalents in the other Empires.
But whilst people seeming to suggest that only the Fed has state sponsored thugs who basically exist to circumvent citizens rights (both foreign and domestic) irritates you, the contention that the Fed is basically so free and star-spangled awesome that it is better than everyone else WHILST it has the Black Eagles irritates everyone else.
So, basically, weâre all aligned in our opinions regarding the Black Eagles.
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Messrs. Galente and Schmidt:
(Iâve been really liking that abbreviation ever since I learned it. Hee!)
So-- hereâs the thing: our class aside, the universe pretty much ticks along on one species and another of autocracy. Actually, maybe I shouldnât be excluding us: most capsuleer organizations arenât democracies either; we just get to pick which ones we follow instead of being born into one.
And I think the two of you might just misunderstand why it is that those of us who do mistrust democracy might be a little leery of the Eagles anyway.
The Caldari, broadly, are wary of the Federation partly because of its historical arrogance, but also, more subtly, because it has a history of going boom. And by going boom I donât mean actually exploding; I mean getting swept up in a tide of sentiment that turns what would be a tense moment in an autocracy into full-blown raging nationalistic lunacy. Itâs viewed by those of us in societies putting a premium on stability as, basically, a powder keg. Sweating dynamite. A corroded antimatter charge.
From my own personal point of view, Iâd really like to be wrong about that. I donât think I could live in the Federation; itâs pretty alien to my way of thinking and I donât think Iâd be able to be comfortable in my own skin in such a place. But I kind of like that it exists. Itâs neat, seeing something relatively poorly-tested (democracy) playing out-- itâs amazing that itâs lasted this long. Even if I still think itâs dangerous, I guess Iâm kind of rooting for it a little.
Thatâs why the Black Eagles are a worry. Iâm not so concerned about what theyâre going to do to me; Iâm worried about what theyâre doing to your society. From where I sit, it looks a lot like they are, or are emblematic of, the corruption, the corrosion, that is working the Federal system towards a catastrophic failure.
The Templis Dragonaurs have lately been a worse problem: Tibus Heth was one, turns out. So, thatâs bad. And maybe the Caldari systemâs a little prone to its own kind of instability and craziness ⌠but theyâre out of power now, and itâs going to be a while (decades? Centuries?) before they have a real chance to get it back.
The Dragonaurs both represent a thread within Caldari society and its corruption. The Black Eagles do the same-- and, actually, I think itâs a similar thread. The Dragonaurs are sneaky until theyâre not; the Black Eagles can operate openly-- or at least, officially. So, yeah, I do think theyâre comparable in certain ways. Talking about this isnât really about whoâs worse than whom, or whoâs to blame for what, at least for me. Itâs more to do with fault lines and corruption.
In the end, I think to the degree I have a personal political standpoint, Iâm pro-civilization way before Iâm anti-much of anything. The Federation is a nifty, shiny experiment thatâll be really inspiring if it can survive. The question has always been: âCan it? Really?â
The State had its Tibus Heth moment, and that was bad, but it survived. The Empire survived Karsoth. The question is whether the Federation can survive similar shocks without collapsing into something more State or Empire (or Syndicate or Cartel) -like with a powerful release of (so to speak) socio-political energy that makes it a really dangerous neighbor for a while.
The merit of autocracy is the ability to absorb a bajillion shocks with basically nothing to collapse into short of anarchy. Itâs like setting off explosives in a sand pile. The Federation seems more like an edifice of glass: really pretty, and maybe made out of basically the same stuff, but more fragile, and apt to produce really dangerous conditions if something goes off in the middle of it. The autocratâs critique is obvious: âthis canât possibly stand.â
The kinda-sorta friendly autocratâs critique is a little more nuanced (and I kind of wish you wouldnât jump on me for it): âThatâs really neat, and really pretty. Can you please make sure it doesnât explode in all our faces? Itâll hurt a lot if it does.â
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(Too bad I still prefer to be only called Charles, silly)
Iâm sorry you think that. With regards to that âconstantly explodingâ thing you keep talking about - what generation of progressives are at at this damn point, anyway - it usually occurs on the higher levels, if not the highestâs. When people give the Federation that wide of a sweep, which is understandable, they forget that some of our member-states have basically signed on and said ââ â â â offâ and sit in relative peace, mostly solitary. Including some of the original Caldari-types who didnât break away when the State did!
We did have something like that happen when the State broke off. U-Nats are a cancer, dude. Anyway, what Iâm trying to say is that when someone like Luc Duvalier takes control and makes changes that puts us like the State/Empire, we shake that off pretty quickly. Still happened, though. Totes bummer, but hey.
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Thatâs⌠actually not true, Aria. Autocracies and other top-down forms of governance are inherently more susceptible to critical system shocks than bottom-up social structures like Democracies. Itâs easy to look at the State and the Empire, and say âsee, those two examples show the strength of Autocracyâ, but thatâs a huge oversimplification.
First off, the Stateâs an Oligarchy, and as you yourself have pointed out, the Empire is a Feudal Aristocracy. Those particular forms of Autocracy have a similar, particular strength: redundant power structures. In the State, if one Megacorporate structure goes to hell in a handbasket, there are others to maintain order. In the Empire, the direct damage the Emperor or Chamberlain can cause is mitigated by the next tier down the ladder: the distributed authority of the Houses.
Better examples of true Autocratic societies are found in, well, capsuleer organizations. How many corporations and alliances fold because their singular charismatic leader flaked off? Atlas Alliance, Black Legion, Nulli Secunda, and those are just some of the larger names. The list is in the thousands, easily. The State was able to survive Heth, and the Empire able to survive Karsoth, not because of the absolute power of the individual autocrat, but in spite of it, because of the machinery of distributed power that supports that titular absolutism.
That machinery continues to run, and be run capably, even when the autocrat is not running things well. A functioning bureaucracy is just that: bureaucracy. Itâs not a particular hallmark of any one governmental structure.
The weakness of a democratic system is that the power is invested in the populace. This distribution means that singular traumatic shocks are more easily taken in stride. Thatâs the âsand pileâ - a billion little tiny bits each absorbing a little bit of the shock and each reinforcing one another. The problem is that the same distribution that gives those systems their inherent resilience also make them prone to internal dissension. Worse, it means that corruptions like disillusionment, cynicism, and apathy spread much wider and take root much more deeply before they begin to be felt and noticed.
Itâs easy to notice and take action against a corrupt singular leader. Itâs a thousand times harder to take action against a corrupted and dispirited population.
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⌠hm. Thatâs an interesting point. And it matches some of my observations of how the Empireâs lasted so long pretty well.
Iâll have to think about that a little.
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There is that old adage about how it is in the darkness that democracy dies. How else can there be a means to shine a light in that darkness but to criticize that which caused it? Far better in my mind the indecency of speaking out truthfully and with conviction against that which one regards as inimitable to ones own values and convictions than to permit the decent exploitation of power by those who find themselves able to abjure their conscience in the silence devoid of any recriminations of those which they serve. It is in the silence and in the darkness that tyrants have always planted the seed of their ambitions for power.
Nurtured with the life and blood of those to be deemed dissident or traitor as patriotism is twisted not as the virtue of ones own love for their fellow citizen and an abiding pursuit of common ground and common interest towards a greater good; but rather the haranguing rope of suspicion to be used as a tool of division separating citizen from citizen as it is hung around the neck of those declared enemies so that they may swing from the gallows without trial or recourse to their own defence. For the bloodlust of the mobs made thirsty for vengeance out of their own fear must be satiated with the death of enemies, either real or imagined, and like with Eturrer as he burned alive across every screen in the Federation any calls of injustice are drowned out in the appellations of revenge and reprisal against those once called friend or neighbour.
The roots of tyranny and oppression grown deep in the soil well cultivated with the blood of the innocent become difficult to rip out. In the name of security and patriotism the Black Eagles of the SDII seek to define what is, and what is not to be said in the Federation; and they impose this through suspicion, fear and the threat of punitive action â legal or otherwise. If in the Federation there is now an imposition upon speech then there equally exists an imposition upon the most basic freedom of the citizen: the freedom of independent thought and opinion. To deny what is to be said, or to enforce what must be said both form an attempt to regulate thought and opinion; and through it dictate action.
Both the Black Eagles and the Templis Dragonaurs while differing upon the basis of their stated goals do share one critical aspect with each other: they are reactionary movements. Like every reactionary movement throughout history they are born out of the belief that the modern society in which they exist is thought to be corrupt, decadent, and beyond redemption. That the only means left of salvation is the pursuit of a fundamentalism ever looking backwards in history instead of progressing forwards towards the future. Holding to the belief that there existed some kind of glorious halcyon days in the past â for the Templis Dragonaurs this is the Raata Empire and for the Black Eagles the hegemony days of the WDL on Gallentia â that are held to be the standard by which how far present society is considered to have fallen.
In chasing the past they inflict great damage upon the present for like any reactionary movement they are the kind of scoundrels who find refuge for imposing their erroneous vision of the past in the guise of patriotism. Denigrating a noble virtue with their craven ambition to realize their own version of history that never existed except as justification and rationale for their inability to adequately adjust to the realities of progress and change required in the present and of the future. While it might be said they live in a fantasy of their own creation, the destruction they can cause upon both the people and institutions of society can be all too real if they are given enough license to act upon their delusions of historical grandeur.
Where the Templis Dragonaurs and the Black Eagles do differ in nature is that the former have never operated with government or official sanction of the Caldari State and are in fact disavowed as terrorists because their vision of creating a New Raata Empire â such as former Executor Tibus Heth sought to implement â requires the complete destruction and dismantling of the political, corporate, and social systems of the State itself as it has existed for over two centuries. The Black Eagles however do operate with the official sanction of the Federal government for they are a Federal Agency and their operations are funded by the public purse. This makes their reactionary fundamentalism all the more pernicious for they are afforded the powers granted by a populous and wealthy Federation to in effect halt its principles so as to regress it towards something different.
One needs only look to the head of the SDII in Mentas Blaque to see just where he seeks to steer the Federation towards at the helm of the agency. During his political and public career his opinions and platform included:
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The ethnic segregation of populations within the Federation into, âcultural habitatsâ to promote, âdomestic naturalizationâ. [1]
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Advocates the restriction and removal of civil liberties and rights to prevent what is in his view is the promulgation of a, âdangerous trend toward risk and personal gain,â Within the Federation. [2]
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Promoted hostility and threats of sanction or outright invasion against the Intaki Syndicate. [3]
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Threatened to withdraw Federal funding for immigrant welfare programs and in particular Matari expatriates. [4]
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Continued inflammatory overtures towards the Caldari State. [5]
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Has been stated on the record during his time in the Senate that the Federation should, âBe governed only by Gallenteans.â [6]
Like any true reactionary personality there is very little to differentiate those such as Tibus Heth or Mentas Blaque. For both the world is very black and white. Both see the world only through the lens of ethnic and cultural differences. That enemies abound and there exist subversives, spies, and traitors at every turn to be blamed for all the corruption and social ills that only their own particular brand of nationalist moralizing can act as panacea for all. Underlying it all only a contempt. A contempt for common decency and dignity of their fellow citizens who they see as in error and flawed because their absolutist ideology and vision of the world permits no compromise and only force or violence the sole arbiter of dispute.
Where Tibus Heth was an usurper however, Mentas Blaque is but a symptom and not the cause of the undercurrents of reactionary nationalism within the Federation â how else could such a man during his Presidential bid have managed almost 60% popular support at one point? [7] It is clear many in the Federation today prefer a strongman, an ersatz Dictator or even an actual tyrant so long as they feel safe and secure in their homes. Even if it means they cede their rights, their liberties, their thoughts, and their opinions to do so. They found it in Jacus Roden, and in his right hand man, Mentas Blaque.
If one has their own principles on the matter however, then one should speak out against that which they deem reprehensible. Especially if one is a capsuleer, for among any others our words can carry weight and credence even if one might not think so and they are not bound by the perils baseliners might face in expressing their thoughts in the Federation of today.
To know that ones own words can give voice to those who cannot speak; to inspire hope for those who despair; to empower the weak and the powerless; and instead choose to remain silent out of the fear that others might see the prestige of their nation dimished in their eyes then do not say you possess principle or conviction for all that you possess is nothing more than pride and arrogance while that democracy which you claim to support slowly dies to its own mute witness.
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Itâs why I much prefer the Tribal Council model to the Parliamentary one. At the uppermost level, itâs an Oligarchy, but itâs a representative Oligarchy. Each Tribe establishes their Oligarch through their own internal processes, and those internal processes and bureaucracies are distributed⌠but theyâre also competitive. A Clan that stops caring, that stops participating in the Tribal governance⌠stops having influence. The apatheticâseptic, in a wayâportions of the body politic effectively amputate themselves, get increasingly marginalized, and⌠in theory, at least, have motivation to clean their own house to get back into the circles of power.
So instead of âeveryone gets representationâ, which leads to people taking things for granted and feeling disenfranchised, you wind up with âyou get representation⌠if you make the effort to get itâ. People value things they have to work for.
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I know way more than anyone like you would be able to imagine. And donât equate YOURSELF to Caldari.
You donât even realize what the Cold Wind is. Begone, fool, leave this place for polite persons, whom you arenât one of, and civil conversations, that you are incapable of participating in, and kiss gallente boots in other places.
Thatâs all I want to say to people like you.
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