Triglavia-Invasion

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Greken

My only point throughout this entire thread is that we cannot simply “remove high-sec and let everybody fight for themselves from Day 1” as it would drive too many new players away.

But nobody is suggesting we do that.

[Salt_Foambreaker]

Exactly and bringing it up just makes the crazies more crazy!

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Greken

All I’m saying is it’s important for the growth of a PvP oriented game to ease players into the PvP and let THEM decide when they want to make that jump to better rewards. Forcing brand new players to, 100% of the time and without any alternative, face down long-time players without giving them the chance to learn the game leads to new players quitting, then eventually there isnt much for the veterans to do.

When people argue about PvP in EVE, they often forget that EVE is a social game. Learning the game and having to contend with veteran players are two wholly different considerations. Why? Because a new player doesn’t have to play and learn the game alone. There are many new player training organizations in EVE (which are so heavily advertised that they’re impossible to miss) that will not only train new players, but provide protection and assistance.

You know what’s scarier than ten flashy Leshaks sitting on a gate? Five hundreds T1 frigates.

@Greken

Carebears keep clamoring for the removal of open-world PvP in EVE under the pretense that new players are suffering. How are they suffering? You can’t just kill someone without dying to CONCORD, and new players provide no value to do so from a financial perspective. It just doesn’t happen. They get killed sometimes, sure (when they make mistakes like going suspect, for example). But the whole “getting camped and griefed into oblivion” thing just doesn’t happen.

Again, completely agreed. I think EVE has an almost perfect balance. I’ve never once called for the removal of open world PvP in EVE. EVE does give new players the safe space (high-sec) necessary to learn the game before venturing into the more lucrative low and null-sec areas. This is exactly how it should be. Give new players a safe space to learn but make the rewards for staying there low, so that they are incentivized to go into the more dangerous areas.

This is exactly like what I was saying with DAOC; that they have PvE zones, and open PvP zones… and the PvP zones gave about 3x more exp for leveling in them for taking on that risk of getting ganked.

The only point I was trying to make out of all these posts in this thread is that we NEED that high-sec, safe area, in EVE to allow players to learn the game. We cant remove High-sec without seriously cutting down on new player retention… Somebody (dont even remember who at this point) was essentially saying that high-sec should be removed, and I was just responding that High-Sec is important if we want to keep new players coming into the game and keep EVE alive.

Having fully open-world PvP with no safe areas or restrictions (Shadowbane or (old) New World) might sound fun, but it leads to a game with a very low recruitment of new players. EVE has it about right.

Here’s the thing, though: no one seriously argues for the wholesale removal of high-sec from the game. The only thing being argued for is the prevention of turning high-sec into a 100% safe zone.

@Greken

From the ONE post I read of his, it didnt sound like he was campaigning for the complete removal of PvP within High-sec. It only sounded like he was saying that high-sec is necessary to allow new players a space to learn the game before they go to low/null.

If you forum regulars know this guy from other threads and that it his stance, then I dont agree with it.

“He” hasn’t been arguing for the removal of PvP within high-sec, but for the removal of all PvP from the game in general (aside maybe from leaving some kind of completely optional “arena” in null-sec where the “psychopaths” can club each other over the head while making grunting noises).

[Greken]

@Merin_Ryskin

@Greken

My only point throughout this entire thread is that we cannot simply “remove high-sec and let everybody fight for themselves from Day 1” as it would drive too many new players away.

But nobody is suggesting we do that.

Well I guess based on this post that Darlo was responding to,

@Merin_Ryskin

EVE needs more danger and destruction, not more coddling of useless farmer trash like you. Don’t want to see your precious farming space lost? Better learn how to PvP.

It did somewhat sound like you were saying that any high-sec space should be able to be taken over by players and converted to low or null sec… thus, he took it to the extreme that eventually all high-sec space would be gone. Which you probably didn’t mean it like that.

I don’t think all players in high-sec are ‘useless farming trash’ though… It takes time to learn EVE and I dont see any reason why it’s bad to let people move at their own pace.

What I DO THINK though, is that if CCP wants players to move out of high-sec, rather than making it ‘less safe’ for new players, it would be much better to increase the rewards in low and null sec. I wouldn’t even mind extremely nerfing the rewards in high-sec, I just dont think making it ‘less safe’ for new players is going to help in the long run because that safe-space is essential to allowing a new player to learn the game and stick with it.

Essentially, I dont think using a cattle prod to get new players out into low-sec by reducing the safety of high-sec will help as much as just showing them what they’re missing out on, and giving them the desire to get “up to speed” ASAP so they can join in on the more rewarding content.

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Greken

thus, he took it to the extreme that eventually all high-sec space would be gone.

Nah, it just saw something that could in even the slightest way inconvenience its farming and posted the same old rant about how MODERN GAMES HAVE OPTIONAL PVP and YOU ARE THE LOSER MINORITY THE MAJORITY WANTS PVE. It desperately clings to every bit of safety that it currently has, taking away even a single system is an act of unspeakable horror.

I don’t think all players in high-sec are ‘useless farming trash’ though…

No. But it certainly is useless farmer trash. There are plenty of people in highsec who are newbies, ruthless PvP-focused industrial players, etc. But it is not one of them.

What I DO THINK though, is that if CCP wants players to move out of high-sec, rather than making it ‘less safe’ for new players, it would be much better to increase the rewards in low and null sec

Lowsec, yes. Nullsec, hell no. Nullbear farmer trash already has enough farming ISK as it is, the last thing we need to do is add more.

In any case, nobody is talking about removing all of highsec or making highsec-wide nerfs to new players. Flipping some systems to lowsec/nullsec will have a negligible effect on newbies (who stay in a small area while they learn the game) and is almost entirely a concern for established and wealthy players who care about cross-region trade routes and maximizing hauling efficiency.

[Greken]

@Merin_Ryskin

Lowsec, yes. Nullsec, hell no. Nullbear farmer trash already has enough farming ISK as it is, the last thing we need to do is add more.

In any case, nobody is talking about removing all of highsec or making highsec-wide nerfs to new players. Flipping some systems to lowsec/nullsec will have a negligible effect on newbies (who stay in a small area while they learn the game) and is almost entirely a concern for established and wealthy players who care about cross-region trade routes and maximizing hauling efficiency.

Completely agreed with this entire post. Nullsec also doesn’t need more rewards, very true. They are worse farmers than the high-sec farmers, but at least they theoretically had to ‘earn’ their spot out there and have to defend it. So in that respect there is a sense of risk-reward unlike in high-sec. Also, agree that having a few systems taken from High-sec doesn’t change anything, there are plenty of alternatives.

Sorry if I misunderstood your post based on Darlo’s reply. It seemed like all he was saying is that high-sec is important because without it, you would lose 95% of new players trying out the game. Which I do agree with. But I don’t, at all, think the loss of a handful of High-Sec systems is some sort of calamitous beginning-of-the-end for high-sec space in EVE.

EDIT: see Nicolai Serkanner, people can have a discussion without calling people trolls and sock-puppets, grow the ■■■■ up

[Sugar_Smacks]

If Null had some kind of magic content that players would love to do then people would already be in Null.

Null is generally not unsafe, or scary as far as EvE is concerned. In fact I would say its borderline mindless compared to Hisec and probably generally more safe considering every time I watch a Null player stream he has a little alert sound he is using on a 3rd party program to tell him if anyone is even a few systems away.

Trying to force others into content they don’t desire because that is what YOU desire has bad results generally. Stop assuming the content you are doing is somehow superior because it “could” be more dangerous. Not because it is, but because it could be.

If we based this game on any sort of reality all Null rewards would be nerfed and wormhole rewards would be buffed.

[Greken]

Sugar Smacks

I agree with this 100% so

I dont play in null personally.

EDIT: this was responding to Sugar Smacks, don’t know why my reply button isnt working right

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Greken

EDIT: this was responding to Sugar Smacks, don’t know why my reply button isnt working right

CCP’s terrible forum software automatically deletes the quoted text if you quote the entire post immediately prior to yours. To get around it either quote all but the last period in the post or go back and edit the quote in manually after the auto-delete triggers.

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Sugar_Smacks

If we based this game on any sort of reality all Null rewards would be nerfed and wormhole rewards would be buffed.

Sounds good. Though I’d prefer breaking up the safety of nullsec so that it stops being massive blue blobs and RMT botters.

[Manweru_Cemenotar]

@Merin_Ryskin

Sounds good. Though I’d prefer breaking up the safety of nullsec so that it stops being massive blue blobs and RMT botters.

The problem with that one is that last time they tried, nullsec’ers got frightened, started crying and ccp got scared of loosing all those subs.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Manweru_Cemenotar

@Merin_Ryskin

Sounds good. Though I’d prefer breaking up the safety of nullsec so that it stops being massive blue blobs and RMT botters.

The problem with that one is that last time they tried, renters and RMT bot operators got frightened, started crying and ccp got scared of loosing all those subs.

FTFY.

[Nana_Skalski]

Not really all the truth, the stupid, low effort operators stopped, turns out it was majority of botters. But there were botters who adapted immediately, CCP was more inclined on banning those tho, their amount was small. Without the local there was still a method to get instant intel, to know when someone warps into the system, and bots used that. It was about bot alts in capsules watching gates. With time every bot user would adapt so there was no reason to keep that wormhole-like local longer. Also because players were more scared as they had it worse than bot users, without using that method of capsule instant automated intel. They had human run web of people reporting with an app, well, some of them had it.

There were many other additions to gameplay and actions that made bot and null sec ratter lifes harder.

[Nicolai_Serkanner]

@Greken

Forcing brand new players to, 100% of the time and without any alternative, face down long-time players without giving them the chance to learn the game leads to new players quitting, then eventually there isnt much for the veterans to do.

Of course you can back this up with data. data from EvE online of course and not spome other shyte MMO.

[Surly_Bill]

[Darlo_Kubika]

It’s funny to see that some people could not understand with what i’m fighting for 15 years now until they experience it first hand.

Including the ‘you are an alt of balos’ accusation that comes EVERY TIME someone(that is not me) is defending his opinion that is not that of the dirty dozen that stalk me here in every post…

Welcome to my world Greken…

You cannot argue with this people…all you can do is stand your ground…

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Darlo_Kubika

It’s funny to see that some people could not understand with what i’m fighting for 15 years now until they experience it first hand.

What are you fighting for for 15 years?

[Ramona_McCandless]

Sanity

[MB_ThePhotographer]

That was lost long ago… 08 for me!

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Darlo_Kubika

It’s funny to see that some people could not understand with what i’m fighting for 15 years now until they experience it first hand.

No, we understand entirely what you’re fighting for. We just think you’re a raving lunatic for doing it.

You cannot argue with this people…all you can do is stand your ground…

You can argue with us. You just have to come up with better arguments than the nonsense and whining you’re always posting. Plenty of people with a higher level of intelligence and understanding of EVE than you have had constructive discussions with us.

@Destiny_Corrupted

What are you fighting for for 15 years?

Anything that gets in the way of 100% safe AFK farming. The sad thing is that if it spent half as much time learning how to play EVE as it spends whining on the forums it wouldn’t need to beg CCP to make everything easier for it.