Triglavian Collective - Cultural Hypothesis and Discussion - Linguistic Analysis

Umbre_Fallenstar · May 31, 2018, 3:04am

Good Evening Capsuleers,

as I said in the known fact list, this analysis is far too theorical to be included as a “fact” but I wanted to see if a common effort could ensure that we are able to talk to the TC.
And that is only doable by understanding how their language is built.

All that follow is open to discussion !

VOCABULARY

NOTE:: given the highly religious orientation of the triglavian, many words may have a “normal” meaning.

hierarchy & organisation

“clad” = organisation (military?) | capital ship
- “subclad” = subordinate/ appartenance | sub-capital ship
- “clad flow” = organisation
- “cladistic” = military related ?
- “cladeship” = military vessel ?
“troika” = in some languages, is a sleigh pulled by 3 animals, could be a ship squad
- “strategic troika” = logistic (civil?) organisation
- “tactical troika” = military organisation?
- “troika classification”

Military
drones:

“automata” = drone
“deviant automata” = rogue drone

divers

“time”
- “now-time” = present
- “reversal-time” = past
- “advancing-time” = future
- “repeated-time” = repetition
“glorification” = felicitation
“mortification” = punishment
“metaxy” = middle ground, in between = consensus?
"divined " = supposed
“posh lost” = banality/common
“sobornost” = congregation in russian
“noema” = object of perception/judgment/
“volition” = will
“exclave” = Inside POV of an enclave

buildings & location

“conduit loop” = gates linked in a loop fashion
“construct 9” = model of gate
*“sub-27” = a region

unknown

“arbitraty response unit” =
“upflow” =

Sentence Construction

/!\ Highly Uncertain, help and opinion needed /!
TC sentences seem to be constructed relativly similary to our common tongue. The particularity seem to come more from many theme based vocabulary than to truly different sentence formation.

Exemple

religious theme
-divined
-glorification/mortification
military
-strategic
-tactical
-possibly all “clad” related words
time
-advencing time
-reverse time
-now time

One particularity truly noticeable is in the use of nested complements.

Exemple

Convocation of the Troika of the Vodya Subclade of Veles Clade
which can be cut like this:
Convocation of (the Troika of [the Vodya Subclade of {Veles Clade } ] )

Once the sentence has been cut and key vocabulary have been analysed, the meaning often become clear.

Translation

Official CONCORD translation	Hypothetical Translation	Notes
Damavik Subclade of Perun Clade revised adaptation schema for cladeship of the 3 tactical troika classification has been accepted for imprinting in advancing-time generations after cladistic glorification over Samovda Subclade. Tactical subrole dispersal is in the gift of strategic troika.	The Damavik, belonging to the "clade" of Perun, is a military adaptation of the (3 = 3^1 = first?) "tactical troika" (maybe an organisation). Which (the Damavik) has been accepted into military text-books after being proved militarily superior to the Samovda. The "strategic troika" is in charge of distributing it	1) possible ship "Samovda" 2) seem to has a separation between "tactical" and "strategic".
Vedmak Subclade of Svarog Clade relinquished the adaptation schema of reverse-time accepted 81 tactical troika classification into the cladeflow of Triglav after cladistic mortification by Dazhbog Subclade. Strategic troika have advancing-time pressure for adaptation into tactical subroles.	Svarog's "Clade" relinquished the schematics of The vedmak, which is the 4th (? 81 = 3^4) last to have been accepted (? "reverse time"). This schematic have been integrated into the Triglav (the whole culture I suppose). Svarog Clade has been punished militarily (?) by the Dazhbog subclade (group or ship?).The "strategic troika" have difficulties (advancing time pressure) adapting into a military position.	1)Triglavian seem to have political groups 2) the last sentence seem to show a militarisation of the culture 3) possible ship: Dazbog
Leshak Subclade of Veles Clade scattered the adaptation schema of reverse-time reclaimed adapation schema of 729 tactical troika classification vessel into the cladeflow without proving after Convocation of Triglav Outside the Struggle. Convocations of the Commune Troika have now-time pressure for dispersal to strategic troika.	The Veles Clade adaptated (reverse time reclaimed = reverse engineering? ) the 6th military vessel and made the Leshak, they scattered it's schematics into the military without testing after the "Convocation of Triglav Outside the Struggle". The "Commune troika" have difficulties transmitting convocations with the "strategic troika"	1) this "Convocation of Triglav Outside the Struggle" could be an emergency meeting to respond to their home's invasion. 2) the Triglav seem to be under high pressure from outsider, having no time to test new design and seem to have communication problem.
Strategic Troika of Svarog Clade sever-dissents from noema that deviant automata may enter sobornost with clades. Svarog Clade now-time affirms imperative of poshlost extirpation.	The "strategic troika" of the Svarog's Clade rebels (sever + dissent) against the jugement that Rogues drones may be allies (congregation) of the Clades. Svarog affirm that banalities (civil thing ?) must be removed.	1) Apparently the Triglav consider the Rogue drone as allies Svarog disagree and seem prone to militarisation
Paramount Technical Troika of Gromovi Subclade evoked the playful communion of repeated-time tactial troika in sub-27 exclave with repeated conduit loop construct-9. Upflow of metaxy to Perun Clade evoked acceptable grounding of material realization in advancing-time of tactical casting and reflection across arbitrary response units.	The Paramount Technical troika of Gromovi's subclade spoke of multiple beneficial/peaceful (?) encounter/finding by the tactical troika, inside the exclave "Sub-27" with multiple "construct -9" model looping gates (conduit = gate). The Clade Perun received word about the possible colonisation (?grounding of material realization ?) in the future after consensus by military operations and crossing of chosen attributes.	The traduction on the last part is REALLY unsure, I chose to use the common separator "of" to determine the subject of the last part, but, really,It's debatable . 1) possible new ship, Gromovi 2) Gromovi seem to be part of the Perun clade 3) Triglavian have mapped the Abyssal deadspace and know how to navigate inside.
Convocation of the Troika of the Vodya Subclade of Veles Clade divined purpose for the deviant automata in the flow of Vyraj. The Koschoi of Vodya made a casting that the winnowing of the clades would be served by turning poshlost to sobornost. The Navka of Vodya gave this noema profound reverse-time sense and grounded the metaxy. The Narodnya of Yodya accepted the volition and merge-consented in the Koschoi and Navka of Troika Vodya. With this scribing is the working of the flow revealed as law.	The Troika's gathering (convocation? ) of the Vodya sub clade, part of the Veles Subclad, hypothetized (divined) the purpose of rogue drone inside the "flow" Vyraj. The Koschoi (see note 2) of Vodya divined (this time in the religious sens) that the "separation" (winnowing) of the Clades would happen if the "banalities" (civilian?) are turned into? congregation. The Navka of Vodya considered the object of judgement and based on past history (reverse time sense) and approved the consensus (the same as the gromovi's one?). The Narodnya, of Yodva accepted the volition (usage of one's will) and agreed to merged within the Koschoi and Navka of Vodya"s Troika. With this scribing (communication?) is the working of the flow revealed as law. (this last part seem to bear religious importance as in a "revelation" sens of some foretelling becoming "true".	1) flow seem to designate a "region" 2) Probably an advisor ? 3) same as 2), possibly a keeper of lore

Interpretation

As always, this part is subject to change and discussion.

Culture
- Foretelling/prophecy is important.
- “imprinting in advancing-time generations” could refer to infomorph technology
- Seem to disagree on Rogue drone trust-worthy, possible civil war hinted.
- they seem to cut the Abyssal deadspace in “Flow” and “exclave”, high probabilities of third designation
Organisation
- Triglav
  - Clades
    - Sub Clades (troika: Strategic / Tactic / Technical / Commune)
Known Clades, subclades and Positions
- Perun
  - Damavik
  - Gromovi (not confirmed but fairly certain)
  - ???
- Veles
  - Leshak
  - Vodya (Koschoi / Navka / )
  - Yodya (Narodnya / )
- Svarog
  - Vedmak
  - ???
  - ???
- unsure related subclad
  - Samovda
  - Dazhbog
Mapping of Abyssal Deadspace
- Flow of Vyraj
  - exclave sub-1 (3 = 3^1 hypothesis based on the counting system)
  - exclave sub-2 (9 = 3^2 hypothesis based on the counting system)
  - exclave sub-3 (27 = 3^3)

I will repeat it once again. It’s only based on my analysis and Really want to confront it to other people’s version and thoughts !
Thanks for reading!

Arrendis · May 31, 2018, 5:04am

A)Svarog Clade’s subclade is Vedmak, not Damavik.

B)I’m really curious to see what the projects from 9 tactical troika, 27 tactical troika, 243 tactical troika, and 2187 tactical troika, to say the least.

These guys really have a painful grammatical structure, even if the words they’re using (including ‘clade’ and ‘automata’) are all perfectly normal human words.

Umbre_Fallenstar · May 31, 2018, 11:31am

A) thanks for noticing the error

B) Even if they indeed use “normal” human words, one need a few adaptation time to be able to understand what they mean, they seem to use heavily focused theme vocabulary, and some meaning, especially for their titles, is unknown to me.
If a specialist pass by, he/she 's welcome to comment.

Sadly, given the IGS’s interest in science I’m afraid it will not happen.

And yes, their grammar is painful to translate.

((OOC: I’m not sure that the slavic lore is well enough preserved in new eden to be able to know the meaning of their titles ^^" If someone can tell me otherwise, I’ll gladly change this ^^))

Nauplius · May 31, 2018, 3:41pm

I don’t understand science stuff, but I heard that while ultra-literal, non-idiomatic translation can be justified in a research context, you still have to follow the rules of the target language. Concord must put a “the” between “divined” and “purpose” or else “divined” is a substantive and the whole thing becomes a fragment lacking an active verb. There are a couple other missing “the”s in these texts; otherwise, however, the text is intelligable but for the rare words as mentioned by the original poster.

Nauplius · May 31, 2018, 4:02pm

Oh, also, maybe they have a limited core vocabulary and make up for it by heavy use of compounds.

Concord also might be telling us by their translation that they’re pretty light on variety of adverbs. particles, and prepositions, instead using their version of “of” as much as possible. Word order in their language is probably hyper-rigid.

Assuming this is a spoken language at all?

Umbre_Fallenstar · May 31, 2018, 4:09pm

Thanks for your input.
I think that CONCORD tryed to stay as close as the original wording than possible. That’s why I agree with your second input on the lack of “the” and use of “of”.

If this language is supposed to be spoken is unknown. My opinion is a “no” given the “sacred text” side of some of their texts.

Andreus_Ixiris · May 31, 2018, 6:00pm

It’s possible “deviant automata” could refer to the Sleepers or even the Drifters. Given how isolated the Triglavians seem to be from the rest of the galaxy, they may not be able to easily tell the difference.

Look, on a brief aside, can I just say that all of this stuff scares me a little? I’m fairly well-versed in quantum and spatio-temporal phenomena, and yet I couldn’t even begin to tell you - at least in any meaningful terms - where Abyssal Deadspace is in relation to New Eden. Some of the things I’ve seen so far strongly suggest to me that “where” might not even be the right word.

Umbre_Fallenstar · May 31, 2018, 6:15pm

While I agree on the possible misconception for the TC between drifters and biological drones (based on their tech, the frontier between bio and tech seem very small). But the fact that they do say that at least some triglavian works with “deviant automata” and that we DID saw rogue drones work with TC. Unless new data, it seem likely then that the deviant automata are indeed rogue drones.

Sir, you enter my field of study there ^^

I can only redirect you to my work on gravitational waves.
But to keep things simple, Abyssal deadspaces pockets are “gravitational maelstrom”.

The Exact “where” is irrelevant but could be calculated based on gravitational waves.

To be honest, I would gladly have your help on the matter to try hypothesis HOW those pockets are linked one with another.

Andreus_Ixiris · May 31, 2018, 6:50pm

I respectfully disagree, on the basis that normal deadspace pockets exist within a solar system and are still part of it. Abyssal Deadspace pockets seem to be… somewhere else entirely, somewhere that doesn’t seem to be at all related to where or when a filament is used.

For instance, say I use a filament in Jita. It takes me to somewhere that seems to be quite definitively Not Jita, in that it doesn’t seem to be physically located anywhere in the vicinity of the Jita system. Now, given that I can only ever use a filament once, it’s impossible to say if it would lead me to precisely the same place it does in Jita if I had used it in, say, Sobaseki or New Caldari. I could also be wrong - Abyssal Deadspace pockets could somehow actually be physically located in the system, and the filament is merely a means of accessing them.

Either of these possibilities has truly staggering implications on almost everything we know about FTL travel.

If the pockets are physically located in New Eden systems and the filaments are merely means of accessing them, then that must mean that these pockets have been there since before the rise of the Amarr Empire, at least, and there must be dozens of them, in every single system in New Eden, unless there are some specific systems in which filaments simply don’t work. So far I haven’t heard any reports of this.

If the pockets aren’t physically located in New Eden systems, then that means the filaments are capable of reliably and consistently producing a spatial phenomena capable of transporting a ship many lightyears to a very specific point without specialised permanent infrastructure or shipboard equipment. To this day, no technology we possess is capable of doing this.

Umbre_Fallenstar · May 31, 2018, 7:47pm

I will respond to you in an other thread since this one is more about their language and culture than filaments.

You can read my response here

Kybernetes_Moros · May 31, 2018, 9:53pm

These Triglavian guys are really neat. I mean, technologically and culturally. Whether they’re really neat in a deeper sense depends on the conclusions of those far-better equipped to judge than myself!

It looks like CONCORD are struggling to get their head around idiomatic or culture-specific aspects of their language. Fear not, though! It reminds me a lot of how a good friend and esteemed colleague liked to speak. I might not have quite all the answers, but boy, I have opinions–and they’re what you asked for!

I’ll weigh in for each fragment in turn, then offer some general comments.

“Damavik Subclade of Perun Clade…”

Future generations will be trained in revised operation practices of the cladeship classified as “3” after the Damavik Subclade (of the Perun Clade) triumphed over the Samovda Subclade (potentially of the Perun Clade, but perhaps not).

“Vedmak Subclade of Svarog Clade…”

After the Dazhbog Subclade (of some larger clade) attacked the Vedmak Subclade (of the Svarog Clade), the latter released the operational techniques for the ship class “81” to the Triglavian Collective at large, previously accepted. Moving forward, the is pressure for the strategic troika to adapt to more tactical roles–that is, to transition from long-term, large-scale planning to the short-term, small-scale execution of those plans.

“Leshak Subclade of Veles Clade…”

The Leshak Subclade (of the Veles Clade) disseminated the operational techniques for the ship-class “729” amongst the Veles Clade (or perhaps the Triglavian Collective as a whole) after the “Convocation of Triglav Outside the Struggle”. These techniques are old, and only recently re-entered general use. There is pressure for these techniques to be passed on to strategic leaders.

“Strategic Troika of Svarog Clade…”

The Svarog Clade’s strategic leaders profoundly disagree with the idea that the autonomous machines (or, fine, the Rogue Drones for the more rigid amongst us) and the clades can co-operate. The Svarog Clade reiterates the need to take the issue seriously.

“Paramount Technical Troika of Gromovi Subclade…”

The Gromovi Subclade’s technological leadership recall the interaction of an experienced tactical team with “repeated conduit loop construct-9” on an external mission, which was ultimately to the former’s benefit. Passing this on to the Perun Clade (perhaps the clade to which the Gromovi Subclade belongs) lead to the development of improved communications within the Triglavian Collective’s fleets.

“Convocation of the Troika of the Vodya Subclade…”

When the leadership of the Vodya Subclade (of the Veles Clade) met, they found a purpose for the autonomous machines in their religious or philosophical framework. The Koschoi, one element of the Vodya Subclade’s leadership, declared that the clades would be best improved not by fighting with or ignoring the machines, but by having the machines work together with the clades. The Navka, another element of their leadership, agreed that, given what they had seen so far, this makes a good deal of sense. Thus, the Narodnya, the third component of their leadership, accepted these jugements and chose to back the Koschoi and Navka.

In this, one can see that the Collective’s religious or philosophical dictates can be realised through the direct action of the clades.

Whoo-ee.

The Triglavians certainly don’t seem unified–and that’s a shame, but what can you do? We’ve got the Damaviki winning against the Samovdy, the Vedmaki getting the stink-eye from the Dazhbogi, and the Svarogi being real fascists as regards the autonomous machines (even though the Vodyi don’t seem to think they’re that bad, on balance). This mightn’t be in military conflict, sure, and just refer to internal debates and arguments, but still! They don’t all get along all the time. Sad!

It looks like CONCORD named the Damavik, Vedmak and Leshak after the subclades which produced them. I mean, we’ve just got the vessels classified as “3”, “81” and “729” internally. Maybe this has some numerological connection to the number three, and maybe that’s just that–numerology. That’s not for me to say!

Talking about exclaves is interesting. Are these guys totally confined to Abyssal Deadspace? That’d be a challenge, when the pockets don’t seem all too stable. Do they have a presence somewhere outside that’s a bit more hospitable? That’s how I choose to read “The Struggle”, in the absence of anything more substantive: Abyssal Deadspace. Hence, the “Convocation of Triglav Outside the Struggle”–a meeting of those members of the Collective that don’t subject themselves to the hot mess we call Abyssal Deadspace.

And let’s not forget just how deeply ritualistic these guys seem to be! That last fragment? They inscribe that on their command pylons! Who even does that? Other pieces of Triglavian sample text have come from data chips we’ve analysed, while the ones involving the ships themselves seem to be packed right into their schematics! These guys love their history. Scribbling it on their buildings and squeezing it right on in alongside firmware and design details is a level of passion even I don’t get to, and believe me, history’s a big deal in my life!

It might be worth picking that trick up from them, though… it could be a nice, classy way to decorate the right things. A ship where the odd panel here or there tells a story from the past? Kind of neat, I suppose. Doesn’t really have the same pizazz as the Triglavian’s efforts, though. They have the cultural overtones with it–the Flow of Vyraj? Don’t know what it is, beyond maybe some system of religious or philosophical beliefs, but it sounds cool. Certainly gives that kind of fetishistic historical enthusiasm that added oomph to make it exciting!

An edit: Oh, lest I forget! I don’t quite think that the pockets are in New Eden per se since, come on, they’d interact with things–but I’m not going down that road. If they are, though, then there’s a detail that could be fun to think about: how much do they know about us?

Jaret_Victorian · May 31, 2018, 10:02pm

Fascinating, Kybernetes.

I mean, what will happen when we finally get to talk? (Well, except, “Get out of our space”)

Umbre_Fallenstar · May 31, 2018, 10:12pm

Thanks for the extensive response !
I sadly not have the time to response to everything tonight ^^"

But I’ll focus on focused part for now:

I think their numeric system is based of power of 3, (3^1 = 3; 3^2 = 9; 3^3 = 27; 3^4 = 81, etc)
the fact that they talk about “exclave” mean, in my opinion that they KNOW they are in enclave.
the pockets ARE “stable”! it’s the filament tech that render our ship’s WARP CORE unstable under the gravitational waves.
they indeed are highly religious, but in an limited and dangerous environment, it’s the best way to keep a culture together and coherent.
-“who does that?” humm… check EVERY old human culture’s remains… humans have always tried to stay in history by letting writings, drawings, etc.
for the last part, see the linked thread about filament and AD in my previous post, I’ll gladly talk about it there! but to keep things simple, they CAN be inside new eden, simply they are “singularities” like black holes but of much less mass. (but really just read the thread ^^ )

I will comment later for the rest !

thanks again! that’s exactly the kind of interaction I was hoping for when I joined the IGS !

Andreus_Ixiris · June 1, 2018, 12:07am

3 is fairly obviously connected to 3. Little need be said there.

81 is 9 * 9, which can also be expressed as 3 * 3 * 3 * 3.

729 is 81 * 9, which can also be expressed as 3 * 3 * 3 * 3 * 3 * 3.

This gives us a few gaps - 9 (3 * 3) and 243 (3 * 3 * 3 * 3 * 3). I wouldn’t be surprised to find ships by those numbers.

The obsession with the number 3 can be seen in pretty much everything they build, from their starships to their travel conduits to their static structures. It’s possible that they use a ternary (base 3) or nonary (base 9) numeric system, although ternary seems more likely as nonary is fantastically difficult to do anything useful in.

Arrendis · June 1, 2018, 1:04am

From direct observation, there are structures in the Abyss that suppress ‘deviant automata’. In operation, these don’t seem to affect my drones, my missiles, Sleeper drones, or Drifters. They do, however, affect ‘swarmer’-type Rogue Drones.

Which would seem to clear up the ‘deviant automata’.

Umbre_Fallenstar · June 1, 2018, 1:34am

they killed mine ^^"

So I would say they DO affect drones. It’s possible that the numeric signature is too close of rogue drones’s one.

Umbre_Fallenstar · June 1, 2018, 1:41am

That’s why I emitted the possibility that they use a power of three counting system.
Ternary and nonary are ruled out by the number we have (729 does not exist in trinary and nonary).

Arrendis · June 1, 2018, 1:41am

Well, let’s figure out why!

What kind of drones were you using, and what kind of ship were you flying?

Umbre_Fallenstar · June 1, 2018, 1:43am

could we discuss it in the triglavian fact? I would like to keep the subjects separated for clearance ^^"

Umbre_Fallenstar · June 1, 2018, 3:25pm

Ok, now I have the time to do a proper response !
On a whole, I tried to stay close to the original phrasing.

“ *Damavik Subclade of Perun Clade…* ”

I agree on your interpretation, the “cladistic glorification” could indeed mean military exercices. Where I potentially disagree (on yours and mine) is that the “imprinting” word could mean the use of infomorph tech.

“ *Vedmak Subclade of Svarog Clade…* ”

So, if I understand you correctly, the “strategic” vs “tactic” is more of a matter of time ?

“ *Leshak Subclade of Veles Clade…* ”

So, for you, the subclades are différents than the ship model ?
I feel like in your traduction we lose the “without testing”.
On my opinion there is an inconsistency problem in your translation. the “strategic troika” is for you a group of people where the “commune troika” mean " old ". Or maybe I didn’t understood something, but I feel like in the whole last part, you are very far of the original word’s meaning. Could you explain how you got there?

“ *Strategic Troika of Svarog Clade…* ”

I Completely agree with you. the last part particularly, it seem much more plausible !

“ *Paramount Technical Troika of Gromovi Subclade…* ”

interesting bits here.

you translate “exclave” by “outside”? why? this word is a perfectly valid one in english and could only mean they know being inside enclave, no ?
given the seemingly rigid society they live in, I tend to agree on the appartenance of the gromovi to the perum clad
could you develop how you got to the chosen translation for the last part?

“ *Convocation of the Troika of the Vodya Subclade…* ”

I assume that you think the “yodva” is only a typo from CONCORD for “vodya”? because otherwise the Narodnya is not part of the same group than the Koschoi and the Navka.
I like you translation for the rogue drone’s part, it really fit for the religious part. The meaning of “flow” indeed seem important.
I like how in your translation it almost seem like the Narodnya choose to agree with the two other but it almost feel like this one is not so sure.
I tend to disagree a little with your choice for the last part. In your translation, it make seem that the religious part is almost absent by making the Clades the one to make the choice, where the original text seem to bear a almost “there it is written the word of god” echo, no?

For your generals remarks:

Indeed they don’t seem unified, and in that they indeed seem human ^^
for the number connection, I’ve already told my point of view on this matter
I agree with you on the Exclave part, and for me it indeed mean that they are blocked there but also that they KNOW they are in small pockets. It possibly mean that they ancestors perfectly knew where they were going.
On the matter of pockets, they are kind of stable, it’s not the pocket that limit our time there, it’s the filament interfering with the warp corde drive of our ship.

I talked about it in other threads, and I do think they are inside new eden. The question of what they DO know about us is interesting though, and in my opinion the remote nature of AD could mean they do not know a lot about us actually.