SubTopic - Filament Technology and FTL travel


(Umbre Fallenstar) #1

I may have been quick in word, I’m sorry, English is not my first language.
If I said that the position of AD is “irrelevant” it is for it’s exploration.

So…
As I said in my study, gravitational maelstrom are the opposite of gravitational resonances, which are where the wormholes can appear.

Gravitational Maelstrom are particular places.

Given what concord have released on informations about filament, the use of filament change the functioning of the warp core and make you jump to a specific maelstrom. that’s why when you use multiple filament, you end returning to a previously visited place (for now I have used 5 filaments of same kind and get twice in the same maelstrom).

When this technology is mastered, we may be able to know precisely where we are going to end.

To draw a comparison with the wormholes.
The filament is the wormhole (anomaly), and the maelstrom is the wormhole (system).

ON the revolution of FTL travel, you draw the exact same conclusion than me: yes, it IS a revolution !

When mastered, and when mapped, we could solve the actual problem of colonisation !

now, on the exact location of abyssal deadspace.

The use of deadspace isn’t to overlook: a deadspace pocket is a region of space where your warp drive can’t reach.
That’s why deadspace pockets are generally accessed by acceleration gate which are more like “catapults” than “gate”.

Back on tracks

Here is how the warp function:


(original work by @Max_Singularity, thank you for it )

My hypothesis is that our current warp drive tech is based on the use of “calm” gravitational waves, and therefore work only in area where such waves are calm enough to be passed through without danger.

An abyssal deadspace pocket is a pocket where gravitational waves are much stronger, (on the previous graph we would be under the “subspace” category.

Interaction between jump layer and gravitational maelstrom could be the key of the peralles incident if a gravitational maelstrom were to be near a “tunnel” of hyperspace it could have “snitched” the actual matter of the ship.

And that’s why the use of filament render your ship unstable, eventually leading to an explosion of your warp core. Because, yes, it is you ship that explode, not it’s surrounding.

It all fit: the communication between the two gate being quantum entangled, it would of course be without interference but the actual ship would never arrive.

As I mentioned on my thesis about gravitational waves, those abyssal deadspaces pockets are pockets of space time folded so tightly by gravitational forces that it could be in a solar system and not being detected.

Many solar systems have “missing” planets (known as “planet X”, don’t ask me why this name, I do not know, apparently it’s a tradition, the X could be for “missing” since it’s the basic representation of a spot on a map but I digress) , those “missing planets” could actually not exist but simple be gravitational maelstrom, affecting it’s surroundings and being not observable on a telescope.

To summarize my hypothesis:
Where are those places located?

  • Probably in K-space

Are they reachable by conventional mean?

  • no because our warp core can’t reach it.

The true question is in the number of these pockets.

  • have we visited every single one of them? (I don’t think so)
  • can we determine how the filament work, and use it as an alternative to jumping technology ?
  • can we localize those pockets in our space? probably but it would be a scientific prowess because the only possible way of doing it is from inside the pockets. And with current instability, we simply do not have time.

I hope it is clearer ^^"

As always, It’s open for discussion !


Triglavian Collective - Cultural Hypothesis and Discussion - Linguistic Analysis
(Arrendis) #2

This dichotomy ignores another possibility: That the filaments are not, in fact, moving the ship at all in any of the three spatial and one temporal dimensions we’re accustomed to dealing with. We have absolutely no indications that these pockets are physically contiguous with the normally-observable universe.

While this possibility is an extreme and radical thing to suggest, I can’t help but feel that at the very worst, it is no more radical a suggestion than the idea that adding a single 10m3 device to existing warp engines will suddenly completely alter the way they work, and produce a level of FTL travel that is many orders of magnitude greater than anything our best theoretical models can produce.

Additionally, the transfer conduit created by the so-called ‘space-time filament’ (which means what, precisely?) is clearly not a 4-dimensional structure… so there’s no reason to believe it initiates four-dimensional movement.


(Andreus Ixiris) #3

I mean, what you say isn’t wrong, but “transports us to a literally different dimension” would largely be an extension of “not in New Eden.” I just didn’t want to get too complicated on the initial sales pitch.


(Arrendis) #4

Yes, but then it’s not ‘transporting a ship many lightyears’. It’s like asking how many miles away tomorrow is.


(Andreus Ixiris) #5

Hence why I also said


(Umbre Fallenstar) #6

the “when” is a possibility to be honnest given the levels of energy involved…

And that would explain the specificity of the TC language about time (advancing time, reverse-time, now-time, -repeating-time, etc).

But It’s, for now, a tin foil theory. Even If I like it for it’s theoretical possibility. But Occam’s razor prevent me to chose this theory (for now)


(Arrendis) #7

Is it? IS it? Or is it really more of a shiny polycarbonate film theory? :astonished:


(Umbre Fallenstar) #8

((OOC: it’s very unlikely that it is time travel. CCP already said that there will be no time travel in eve at the time where anoikis got revealled. Because yes, it was a theory that anoikis was new eden but during an other era.)


(Aria Jenneth) #9

Well-- the Collective’s comments seem to keep referring to “reverse-time,” I think it was?

Really there are so many strange things going on it’s hard to keep track.


(Umbre Fallenstar) #10

here is listed all the time-related vocabulary found at this date and that I am aware of

plus all the vocabulary of “flow” that could also be related to time

I agree ^^"
that’s why I try to keep thread on tracks with (funnily enough) 3 threads: known facts / cultural & linguistics / filament. ^^

But It’s nice to see people talking and debating on science subjects.


(Andreus Ixiris) #11

Okay. I spent a little time thinking on this, and… well, I didn’t make very much sense of it. But here’s the best nonsense I can give you.

A thought exercise - imagine you are a two-dimensional being. You can move north, south, east or west, but you can never move up or down - in fact, you have no real conceptualisation of up or down. A third-dimensional entity picks you up and moves you up - only a fraction of an inch, perhaps - and suddenly, you see nothing at all. The entire world you knew occupied a perfectly flat plane, and since no-one from your civilization ever went up or down, there is nothing here.

Or is there?

We, living in three dimensions, know that matter and energy doesn’t exist only on one perfectly flat plane. Sure, you can go up or down and matter density will increase or decrease and eventually you’ll run out of galaxy, but spacetime and matter never really stop being a thing - at least, as far out as humans can practically travel. Why should a poor two-dimensional traveller find absolutely nothing on a different plane? There could easily be an entirely new civilization of two-dimensional entities just like you dwelling in this new plane you’ve been placed upon.

Now. Imagine you’re a two-dimensional entity, but you’re also a very smart scientist and you understand that even though you may not be able to perceive it directly, there is a third dimension, and entities - even lower-dimensional entities like you - could, conceivably, move through it. Thusly, you construct a wondrous machine that allows two-dimensional beings to travel up or down through three-dimensional space. They can’t ever interact with more than one two-dimensional segment of space at once, but they can transit between them, allowing them to interact with things in different segments.

Now imagine that you’re a third-dimensional being, perhaps one with two arms and two legs and a head in which you have a rather excellent brain, and you start thinking - well, what if there’s a fourth dimension? What if I could move through it?

Move a third-dimensional entity a few metres ana or kata and suddenly everything they’re familiar with instantly vanishes and they’re left adrift in a bizarre place they have absolutely no familiarity with, since nobody from their society has ever come here before.

but again, why should it be empty?


(Umbre Fallenstar) #12

but we already know of the fourth dimension, it’s time.
and yes, your analogy is perfect in the sens where one particule only exist at one place in each dimension at a time.
That mean you can only exist in one layer of time at a time, and we all cruise through time on the same 3D space.

The only reason of me defending the hypothesis of abyssal deadsapce being “simply” folded pockets of matter (pretty much like the blacks holes are but on a “non definitive” way) is because of Occam’s razor.

Why try to hypothesis that filament in fact allow us to travel between dimensions, maybe time, when there is a simpler theory that do not need to break the law of physics or would require tremendous amounts of energy?

Going to a pocket of folded matter in the form of an gravitational maelstrom would require far less energy, even less than a wormhole !

And that would explain why the filament currently work only with specific ratio of mass/energy !

I would add that Dimensions, even when unseen, still have effects on the others. And unless I missed a lot of classes back in my days, there is no such things.

((OOC: thanks for the debate ^^ It’s cool to talk about science and not politics for once :slight_smile: ))


(Mizhara Del'thul) #13

No. No no no no no. Stop it. That is kindergarten levels of nonsense and has never been true. Please stop using the term ‘fourth dimension’ for time. It has never been true, and only ever used such as a gross and vast oversimplification. Floating witches aren’t made of wood and time isn’t the fourth dimension, unless you’re going down the route of physics largely characterized by banging rocks together.

In this very clear context, invoking the idea of flatland and such, the dimension in question is spatial, not temporal. We are well acquainted with these dimensions, or should be unless the various academies are now spitting out capsuleers without actually putting them through even the most basic of capsuleer educations. Just getting the most basic of interstellar navigation sorted requires a minimum of ten dimensions before you even get into the whole mess of time.

… that said, that is definitely not what Abyssal Deadspace is. For one, we can see it and interact with it. Secondly, our brains don’t unravel as we do so. Marvelously augmented we may be, but we’re still chained to our evolutionary history as creatures who only need to deal with medium sized things moving at medium speeds through space-time and quite simply aren’t equipped to intuitively perceive or fathom more than three spatial dimensions. In this case, seeing is in fact believing and Abyssal Deadspace is demonstrably three spatial dimensions + time just like everything else we ever perceive.

As for what it exactly is, that’ll require a change in CONCORD’s regulations when it comes to what we can slap onto our ships in terms of scientific sensor and analytical equipment. Until then, all we can do is throw random guesswork at the wall and wait until baseliner organizations get proper answers.

(( Scientific debate in Eve is oddly frustrating given just how many laws of physics everything we do break on a regular basis, heh. One thing’s for sure, classical physics and even our bleeding edge physics is fingerpainting in ‘special’ classes by comparison. ))


(Umbre Fallenstar) #14

well, I’m sorry, but time CAN be a fourth dimension.

It is not a SPATIAL dimension, but it is definitely a dimension.

And no, to do a FTL jump you don’t need “10 dimensions”, you only need the 3 spatial one and the time one. when you actually do a jump you “simply” change of state (to oversimplify) approaching a more “energy based” layer, where “normal space” physics no longer work the same way.

((OOC sorry for the link to wikipedia, but it’s 4 in the morning and have not yet slept, so I do not have the motivation of rephrasing it here ^^"
and for the last part, I found that EvE truly break very few laws of physics, most of what happen is possible at least with quantum physics ^^ do you have a particular exemple in mind of broke law, could you tell? in MP if you prefer
And I even for the one that are indeed a bit far fetched, It’s fun (at least in my opinion ^^ ) to debate around them and try to make sense of them ^^ ))


(Mizhara Del'thul) #15

If we ‘simply’ did that, we’d be breaking causality on a daily basis merely with warp drive. I suppose other academies stick to ‘simple’ explanations to avoid culling too many alumni before their time.

(( Well, causality for one. FTL simply existing is enough to unravel our understanding of physics, especially given aforementioned causality. Eve contains several examples of super-luminal events, one famous one being Caroline’s Star. It’s indeed 04:28 in the morning and this isn’t the place for this discussion I think. ))


(Umbre Fallenstar) #16

(( and if you have a place to do so, i’ll gladly remove thoses parts of here, but talking about sience is so rare on the igs ^^’))


(Arrendis) #17

So, in our casual day-to-day usage, referring to time as the ‘fourth dimension’ is pretty common. But we’re moving past that here, so it’s probably better to speak in more specific terms, ie the three spatial and one temporal dimensions we perceive[1]. Directions in these dimensions are subjective/conditional. There is no objective ‘up’, for example, there’s only ‘the vector in most perfect opposition to the local aggregate vector of gravitational acceleration’.

Similarly, movement through time may be possible in more than the single dimension we interact with. Our standard experience of time is one-directional, but that may be a limitation of our chemistry-based awareness. We label one direction in time ‘past’ and the other ‘future’, but the only really significant difference in the two appears to be the overall level of entropy in closed systems. In one direction, it always increases as you travel. In the other, it always decreases. We label movement in the direction of increasing entropy ‘forward’, and call states of existence in that direction ‘the future’, and label decreasing entropy ‘backward’ and call states of existence in that direction ‘the past’.

There’s some question as to whether or not we really perceive time with anything even vaguely resembling clarity, or just infer its existence through the reconstruction of the state of existence further along in the ‘past’ direction, which we call ‘memory’, but that’s largely irrelevant to this topic.

Mathematics and most models of physics tell us that there are are more dimensions which must exist. Warp drives’ use of a depleted vacuum bubble and gravity capacitors largely depends on one of these models being accurate (but I’m reasonably sure there are multiple models with minute variations at the extremes under which they’d work, so I’m not picking any particular one and saying ‘that one’)[2]. So we have direct experiential data that says they do exist, but we don’t perceive them ourselves. If we did, I’m not sure we’d identify them as ‘spatial’ dimensions at all.

With that in mind, we can say with reasonable confidence (See note 3) that the regions of Abyssal Deadspace have the same three spatial and one temporal dimension we’re familiar with. We’ve experienced them there. Movement through them appears to work normally. The ‘warp bubble collapse’ triggered by the filaments after 20 minutes may indicate that just as there’s a spatial boundary, there’s a temporal boundary. You move too far in the thermodynamic direction of time that corresponds to increasing physical entropy, and… pop. It’s possible (I’m not suggesting this is likely, mind you), that the reason you pop is because where you went in time… doesn’t exist. But again, that’s not relevant to this particular issue.

The tunneling effect we see when transitioning into, within, and out of Abyssal pockets definitely appears to be more in-line with stargates and jump drives than warp drive, even if it interacts with the ship’s warp core. It seems clear that the filament’s entanglement with the warp core drastically alters the depleted vacuum bubble, creating a wormhole-like structure between different points of 3+1-dimensional space-time that we’re then drawn through, but there’s no indication that the two points connected by that tunnel in any way exist in a direct line from one another along any of the standard three spatial dimensions, just as @Andreus_Ixiris has suggested.

My own theory—completely untestable without significantly more extensive research facilities than I’ve bothered to set up right now—is that where the warp drive’s compression of vacuum would normally focus on the removal of quarks via the polar disks, the filament instead aligns the field to remove everything else in the normal ‘warp bubble’ area. While the immediate reaction to that idea might be ‘then why doesn’t it eliminate my ship?’, remember that all of the matter and energy in your ship is composed of quarks, and the field polarity between the disks is carefully calibrated not to eliminate those quarks already.

So what’s left if you ignore all of the quarks in a given 3+1 dimensional box?

The quantum foam of space-time itself. We’re boring holes through reality, and as long as the filament remains entangled with the warp core, it likely holds a line, like the ‘silver cord’ of astral projection fantasists, that connects the ship to where it left from. This is why using the filaments leaves a spatial distortion that can be easily located, and why the ‘origin’ gates return you to exactly that point.

The real question is; if the filament can alter the function of the vacuum-depletion bubble that way… how can we modify our gravity capacitors to let us direct that travel? We don’t seem to be able to salvage ships in these pockets[3], so attempting to reverse-engineer the control system from Drifter, Drone, or Triglavian vessels we encounter is out.

In fact, the only thing we know can escape Abyssal pockets without being encased in a ship using an origin gate… is data. The quantum entanglement that lets fluid routers work seems to follow us into Abyssal deadspace (since our own heads are somewhat… entangled).

So how detailed a scan… and possibly disassembly and salvage… can we make of an Origin gate within 10-15 minutes?

  1. In other words… PEDANTRY MODE ENGAGED.

  2. And yes, jump drives and stargates definitely require more than the 3 spatial and 1 temporal dimensions to work.

  3. Why not? Why don’t rogue drones and Drifters leave recognizable wrecks when they die? Is whatever brings them to Abyssal deadspace simply popping the wreck back to New Eden/Anoikis? Or do the normal-space entities that enter Abyssal space somehow… bring time with them, and when they die, they stop moving through time in the pocket, so we stop perceiving them as we continue to move through time?


(Andreus Ixiris) #18

Wait, are you suggesting that… time is non-continuous from the perspective of things existing naturally within Abyssal Deadspace?

That’s insane. That’s absolutely crazy. And yet somehow it suddenly means the weird language the Triglavians use to refer to time makes way more sense.


(Umbre Fallenstar) #19

I read your reference and at no point they say that you NEED more than the usual dimensions… It merely talk about THEORIES that do it.
((OOC: personally I use the EvE Source book as data about stargates and in there, all what is explained fit into the 4 classic dimensions that’s what I used in my “thesis” part 2/ B) ))

For the same reason that probes are destroyed, because the gravitational waves present in the maelstrom (AD) are too powerful to keep anything in good enough state to be salvaged.

Only the bio cache do it, and because it’s entirely made of those batteries that are adapted to such gravitational pressure.

That seem unlikely since they use the filament tech like us and OUR bodies stay in AD. Why other’s would act differently?

That would be interesting, and we reached the same conclusion about time on the topic about their culture.


(Arrendis) #20

Nonsense. If that kind of force was destroying the wrecks, it would be acting on them (and us) prior to destruction, as well. What’s more, Caldari hulls use Gravimetric sensor suites. They’d be blinded.

I don’t know if I’d go so far as to say that time is non-continuous, but their awareness of time may seem so, even to them, if the Abyssal pockets are as temporally disconnected and unaligned as they are spatially.