Utari's Puppies (Formerly Off-Topic Thread)

So Alizabeth can’t expect to be treated differently unless she, too, declares she’s suffered a completely unique infomorph transfer corruption never seen before or since[1]?

Alizabeth Vea, the sani sabik hedonist, is no different than Alizabeth, retainer of Mitara Newelle and mother of two, who just went and prosecuted a ground campaign with the express intention of minimizing loss of life.

I gotta admit, that’s pretty rich coming from someone who only weeks ago was making a big fuss about 'oh, I may be with the Angel Cartel, but I’m not one of the bad ones, I’m not one of the slavers.

Her last name, she identifies with a period in her life she no longer wishes to identify as ‘who I am’. It’s not a huge ask to show her the common frickin’ courtesy of respecting that desire.

  1. For the record, Aria, I don’t care if it happened or if you faked it to start over. You are who you are now, not who you were, no matter how you got from there to here.

So … just to say a little something here: with apologies, Kala, I have to agree with Arrendis and Loai. Ali’s case and mine are similar in some ways, but different in a pretty key way. And, I think if someone ought to be forgiven, it’s her.

Ali is a timeline reversion. The person she never wants to become, and whose name she refuses, “Alizabeth Vea,” was as I understand it a pretty blood-soaked heretic. This version of her never did any of that, though; she’s a copy from before that time. She had, on waking, the same potential that the originator did-- but she also knows what became of her alternate branch. She has not, in her own timeline, committed the same crimes; those belong to someone who was once herself, but followed a different path. I’m not aware of a culture that’s good with punishing people for crimes they haven’t committed.

I’m an amnesiac. I woke four years ago with a head full of intellectual knowledge, but no knowledge of myself or memory of my past. The person I was, before, is part of my timeline. Everything she did up until she created the backup clone that became me, I am a continuation from. I just can’t remember.

I also don’t remember a lot of the stuff that made her who she was. I know Father beat Mother to death before my eyes, but I don’t remember it. I know I grew up the half-blood daughter of a murderer in rural Achura. I know Mother’s family was embarrassed by my existence. I know I sought capsuleer training in spite of the dangers mostly in a bid to prove I wasn’t useless. I know I interpreted death in the pod as real, and myself as dead-- a ghost. And I know I blamed Mother’s family, and especially its patriarch, for my death. I know that’s why I murdered Grandfather.

I don’t remember any of that. But is there a place in this world where forgetfulness is a defense to kinslaying? Or any of the other things I’ve done?

I’m still her, in the end. If I really believe in justice, I should go home and face what I did. But, I don’t, and I’m not in such a hurry to die. I have stuff I want to do. So, instead of returning, I accept exile and stay away, and try to find ways to bleach away or else somehow compensate for the stain I’ve left on this world.

I’m “her,” a continuation of a single person, branched only after what mattered was already done. Ali isn’t. She’s herself, but not the person that other branch became.

If either one of us deserves forgiveness, it’s Ali.


:gestures to the IGS: I am.


I find it honours the dead and their blood on my hands in the acceptance that I will never be exculpated from my sins in this life. Living with all the things you have done, knowing you have done wrong, is about the only true consequence we ever get as a capsuleer.


That’d sound better coming from you if it seemed likely that you felt that consequence as more than an occasional inconvenience, Veik.


My consequence is that there is neither atonement nor absolution for me, but I must live all the same.

I’m certainly not one to put on a little performance piece about being someone different so as to inherit nothing but dust and falsehood, instead of suffering in good conscience.

This has developed into the oddest discussion.

Of course one is held responsible for one’s crimes, whatever sophistry capsuleer status may allow you to claim. Penitence and due retribution can lead to forgiveness, but the sin remains. Service is atonement, but the sin remains.

And the ability of the liberal mind to tie itself in theological knots continues to astonish me. Crimes against God and the Faith are clearly inter-generational. Many have been required to render service and suffering because of the sin of their ancestors.

The Reclaiming and slavery - and thus the Empire - is founded on that very principle.

I believe that God’s mercy is boundless enough for both of us.

As I understand the Theology Council’s ruling on clones and souls, I still bear Vea’s sins. I don’t know how many centuries it will take for me to atone for what she did, but I intend to do so.

Maybe some time I will write about what I know of her. I will say becoming a monster like Vea, or becoming her is a nightmare that I will never shake.

Vea was a monster and the cluster is better off without her.

Since awaking I have tried my best to repent, in the very literal sense. Not only is the infomorph that committed those sins gone, but this one constantly watches herself to ensure that she doesn’t become the monster Vea was.


But as one demon to another, you will always be Naraka to me, precious one. You may have changed your cause and reasons, but consume the living you do as always.

Oh so that’s what that was all about the other day.

It all makes sense now.

I keep hearing that you two have been terrible people, welcome to the club. What kind of horrific things have you done to elevate yourself to worse monsterhood than the rest of us?

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The difference between Vea and Napkins? Competence.

Now I’ve had my morning coffee and am approaching something vaguely like coherence, I suppose I should explain my thinking in clearer detail.

I’ll start here.

This makes no sense to me, as it doesn’t seem relevent to my point. If, at some point in my history, I had been slaving with the kind of gleeful enthusiasm Vea took to bleeding people, and yet now claimed to be just nice and misunderstood, this argument would make sense.

By everyone? No, probably not. Even Aria doesn’t receive universal acceptance, and her original wasn’t nearly as murderous.

Not “no different”, just likely not different enough. I certainly believe people can change, but in my experience they don’t. Not really. Not at their core.

This is my real issue then. We’ve seen what happens when Alizabeth Vea is allowed to live her life by her own rules. We’ve seen the end point of her path. She’s just lucky(?) enough to have been able to skip back a few steps on that road. That doesn’t mean she’s a different person, it doesn’t mean she’s actually changed.

She’s still Alizabeth Vea, she’s just being shepherded by people confident or foolish enough to think they can guide her to a different end point. Who knows, maybe I’m just excessively cynical and they’ll actually manage it. Maybe in a few years everyone will look at her and think “wow, she really turned it around”.

Or maybe I’m right, and something, somewhere, will happen and she’ll go right back along that same old bloodstained path. Exiling her to Delve of all places brings the phrase “asking for trouble” to mind.

Unfortunately, she doesn’t get to rewrite the impression she has made just to suit her. She may not wish to be reminded of that part of herself, but she damn well deserves to be. May it serve as a reminder of what she’s trying not to be.


Somebody mark this day on a calendar because I agree with her.

I think it is a fair question if one can truly atone for their bad deeds if they are so adamant in distancing themselves from the person who did those bad things. “It was a different clone” Yes, but it was still you. You did those things, even if you consider it another life. Accept it and learn to live with it.

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I agree with Kalaratiri in part, as well. I do recognize that I bear responsibility for what Vea did.

My dropping of the surname is not just a way of telling myself that I must not become her again, but also cultural to the Caldari. Vea’s ultimate suicide was done when her sister made the tea for her to drink.

Because of that, I have no right to use the last name. I think some Minmatar have clan names as part of their full names? (I could be very wrong on this.) If they were expelled from their clan, it would be appropriate to cease the use of that clan name, yes?

Maybe it would be better to have my implants pulled out and my body biomassed as someone said on the Summit today. I don’t know if that is repentance. I do know that I keep trying every day to wake up and make the Cluster a better place.


Bahuh, ever had to mop rain off the sidewalk?

If you believe your previous incarnation’s crimes were so vast and repellent then surely you know that there can be no redemption, that you shall never enter Paradise with the rest of the Faithful.

So there are two options.

Firstly, Mark yourself with the Black Dagger, and submit yourself to God’s Judgement, in the faint hope of absolution.

Or, alternatively, eternal servitude as an immortal monster guarding the Empire. Redemption is denied for you, but you can still serve and protect those for whom redemption is still possible. On that note, Aegis Militia are recruiting.


I wonder whether an exorcism might be somehow useful in this situation. Ms. Alizabeth seems to be a troubled person, and being troubled might be indicative of demonic influence.

Speaking only for my own clan, you would be expected to retain your name that you dishonored. Who you are doesn’t change because you don’t like it. To change it would be disrespectful to yourself and family. In essence you don’t disrespect your name because you should never change who you are, much like modifying your name tattoo. I don’t recall anyone in my clan with our clans name as a family name honestly.

It is not, and that is not why we perform exorcisms (when we ever perform them anymore). She could probably benefit from some counseling, though.