Version 21.02 - General Feedback

Only if you can show that it makes those playstyles difficult for everyone and even then only if the downsides outweigh the upsides.

No playstyles are being declared unimportant. If there is specific actionable feedback that a playstyle is negatively impacted by the UI then I’m sure CCP will address it in time.

They did listen to feedback. They may not have listened to you specifically but it’s not true to claim that they didn’t listen to feedback at all.

I think they’ll iterate forward, particularly since most people don’t have a problem with the new UI. Like many others here you are confusing your personal preference with community consensus.

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But not everyone has the same playstyle . For example, for someone that does trading the new UI color scheme on the orders is a pain, but for someone that does not do any trading at all in the game it’s not a problem.
For someone that does probing and exploration the minuscule recover probes button can be problematic, while for someone that doesn’t do any of those, it just doesn’t exist. So you have to come to a compromise and make everyone happy here.

There’s also issues that generally affects everyone, such as a lot of wasted free space on various window tabs.

For many people trading the new color scheme is not a problem. For many people doing exploration the recover probes button is not a problem. That’s what I mean about it not being objectively bad. You’re talking about people’s personal preferences.

Personal preferences are important as they guide what CCP will change, but when you present it as if it’s objectively bad and that CCP devs are terrible and other such thing, it’s hard to take your concerns seriously.

Personally I don’t see much wasted space. The are some blank gaps, sure but there always were gaps in various windows. They didn’t matter then and don’t matter now. I think the complaints about this border on parody, like the guy that said “wasted space annoys me to the point that I’m in a bad mood before I even starting doing anything”.

The most important thing to take away though is that what CCP needs is clear, constructive, actionable feedback. If your feedback is “I hate it, give me back the old UI” then that’s not going to achieve anything. The old UI is not coming back.

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Brisc stated that he’d only seen 3 people complain about eye strain. He later admitted that number was almost 100. Being generous, I’d say there’s been easily 100+ people making such complaints.

Similarly, there are several hundred people who have voiced their opinions about issues with photon across the pre-existing photon beta testing topic and this one. We’ve also been told (here and elsewhere) that the active playerbase in EVE is around 100,000 users, so that gives us some useful numbers to work with.

It’s generally considered a sensible rule of thumb that more than 95% of users with problems don’t actually complain. When you get a complaint, especially one with multiple users making the same complaint, you can realistically assume that at least 20x as many people are actually having the problem in question (it’s often claimed to be as high as 30x).

This means that the 0.1% of the community complaining about eye strain represents more than 2% of the community actually being affected in such ways. And that’s ONLY counting the people complaining publicly, not all people making complaints, and public complaints are a significant minority of all complaints made about any product. You’re much more likely to get complaints through direct contact than public forums. So I think it’s safe to say there’s a significant probability of photon being physically uncomfortable to use for over 5% of the playerbase.

While that’s still a small minority of people, that’s a HUGE portion of a game’s community to be causing harm to with your game. It’s well beyond the point where taking steps to fix it is appropriate. Of course, even the 0.1% of the active playerbase who have spoken up in the forums specifically citing issues with eye strain are more than the limit I’d consider reasonable to dismiss as too small a minority to worry about.

I get that there are problems with back end and front end being tied together, and with the photon UI being necessary for the devs to be able to move forward with new features and game content. I’m not going to pretend those issues aren’t factors to consider here. But so is the literal physical health of players in addition to the more game-related concept of the health of the playerbase. Pushing 2 or 3 players away from a big tight-knit corp because the UI is causing them harm, is likely to make more than just the directly-affected players quit or reduce their playtime (and often also spending). Pushing players out of the game by pushing things that aren’t harmful in such an extreme sense, but impair playability or enjoyment, will often push more players out than just the ones upset by the change. Because this game is a social game, it relies on groups of players, and if someone in a strongly-connected group leaves, they’ll often take others with them.

And on this point, I think it’s important to clarify something relevant to more than just this comment. There is a very distinct diffrence between something being “objectively” bad (which many elements of the photon UI’s design are) and having “universally” negative impact (which nothing in photon does). Something being universally seen as bad isn’t the same as it being objectively bad. There are demonstrable facts about UI design for which many of the complaints about photon are based on objective facts about the UI. These complaints are objective, not subjective, and they hold the weight of objectivity. There are complaints about design elements in photon which can be objectively proven to be bad design from a medical standpoint because they disregard known facts about how the human eye operates, and about colour theory and other factors which tie into readability and accessibility of information. There are objecive facts about information density and how to present information in a compact manner which the old UI was better at respecting than photon is, and this is why there are so many complaints about the lack of information in photon compared with the old UI.

The photon UI is getting much closer to being ready for the removal of the opt out functionality. It’s close enough that, as I’ve said elsewhere, if they do bring back the ability to opt out (and I remain hopeful that they will), I won’t be opting out any more. But denying that there are objective reasons to call the new UI worse than the old one is at best unreasonably dismissive, and potentially rises to willful ignorance or worse. Dismissing these complaints isn’t appropriate, and trying to deny their basis in fact is stupid and actively harms any claims you might make going forward.

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No, there’s a third group…people who had a look at Photon when it first came out, and who blocked it. Not so much because there was anything intrinsically ‘wrong’ with it, but because the new layout takes a bit of getting used to.

I think one should not underestimate how people get used to the look and feel and placing of stuff on the screen. You know exactly where everything is, how it looks, how it operates, and so on. And that is all part of being able to respond quickly to situations. Photon is not radically different, but it is sufficiently different as to throw one off in some situations…precisely because one has gotten so used to things being a certain way.

This group will no doubt get just as used to Photon as with the old UI. But it is natural that there will be a period of people disgruntled that they had to.

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@Elsie_Duke
I don’t use Direct X at all, I run this on Linux OS from Steam. Glitches should be corrected and not blamed on the subsystems. If you do that, you may as well say, it is the fault of my Nvidia graphics driver and people with Nvidia cards should either not play this game or switch to AMD. Game companies that create a new feature, working for some but not all, need to make that feature optional. It is very annoying to exit completely out of Eve and log back in to remove this glitch.

Why do we need another notice? I already know when I am docking and undocking. Is this developer calling us morons by making this a forced feature?

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I do not understand why people seem hellbent on misrepresenting what I say. I’ve been pretty clear. I have had a total of three people complain to me privately about eye strain in regards to the UI. That’s it.

i have read maybe 100 total complaints about the UI overall, not just about eyes strain, in this thread, on discord and elsewhere.

I have seen almost as many people say they don’t have an issue with the UI or like it.

If it were a problem with say the window for fuelling stations being badly designed then you are going to have maybe 1/10,000 players picking up on it. The key is to separate out the general problems like too much blank space in the design, and the little easily fixed issues like the contrast on markets or the recall drones button.

The assumption is that we are complaining to be contrary and that if we only gave it a go we would get used to it is false. The reality is that a lot of people tried Photon, complained about these issues and switched back to the old UI expecting them to be fixed, only to discover that they were still there on the full rollout.

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And almost all of them cannot produce any reason why they like beyond “it looks nice”. While almost all the people who say it’s bad can substantiate their claims with numerous examples, screenshots, explanations and suggestions to make it better.

The only counter to any of the problems I and others have pointed out is that “you don’t have a problem with it”. Strange how this goes really nicely with Baldeda’s argument that this is just personal preferences. Naturally, you are in good company with that sentiment because CCP likes the same feedback quality, or else they would not boast so much with the 96% adoption rate when it only got there due to them forcefully activating the alpha state UI for everyone. Before they did that, a mere 17% used it voluntarily. That paints a wholly different picture about how satisfied people are. Funnily enough, since they forcefully activated it, only 5% ore people voluntarily started using it. That makes about 22% of all players using the new UI on their own volition.

In the same line, it’s also funny how Brisc likes Baldeda’s posts, a character that doesn’t even exist on Zkill and only joined the game 2 days ago, but he has massive issues with me not having an extensive Zkill history. It is quite the amusing spectacle.

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It is objectively bad UI if it makes life significantly more difficult for certain playstyles that worked very well before.

Adapt, Improvise, Overcome!

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Just a funny anecdote: Yesterday, after CCP had screwed up all the overviews for no apparent reason, I was hard at work to fix my overviews again. I guess this counts as “Adapt, Improvise, Overcome”, eh? During that process, I noticed that the column headers in my overviews were completely out of line. The Icons column header was extended halfway across my overview window, pushing all the other headers away. However, the actual content columns below were not distorted at all and still had the same widths that I wanted them to have. So, this is a sign that Photon is so buggy that even the table headers can be disconnected from the rest of the columns. And on top of that, finding the column divider to return the width of that header back to where it belonged was a real pain because, as it turns out, the Icons column width is not supposed to be variable at all. It has no clickable divider to the column to its right. Surely, this kind of behavior is going to make Photon “easier to use, cause less cognitive overload, makes the use more streamlined”, right? Just a case of “adapt, improvise, overcome”, I get it. :slight_smile:

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As he just said above, he didn’t say this. I remember the post and will link it below but what he said is that anything less than 100 is not a lot. here’s the quote:

This is pure hyperbole.

They aren’t objectively bad. Your dislike of some elements of the design does not make them objectively bad.

It’s amazing how many medical doctors who moonlight as UI/UX designers are suddenly here on the forum. It is peculiar that no such people showed up in the last year to protest the current genocide CCP is apparently undertaking by changing how a UI looks.

It’s already there. I and many others have been using it without issues for many months across a variety of playstyles, giving feedback on bugs and personal suggestions on improvements. It’s fully functional as a UI for the game. Even if CCP did reintroduce the opt-out for 3 months, in 3 months time the exact same people would be back here with a long lists of overblown complaints demanding it be removed.

It’s a UI, what’s is supposed to do? I can successfully control the game using it, it’s easy to use and it’s aesthetically pleasing. It ticks all the boxes for what a UI should do for me. It also makes it easier for CCP to now introduce new features which improve usability further, so all seems great to me.

Sure, it’d be nice to have more customization options and there are choices I’d make differently if I were choosing layouts myself, but the same can be said of the old UI.

That’s always the case with phased rollouts. I didn’t use it right up until the last few weeks of it being opt-in either. I don’t often choose to run test builds. But if the UI was unusably terrible then when they enabled it as default, most people would have opted out, would they not?

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I didn’t check his killboard because he hasn’t tried to totally derail a thread I posted, or tried to appeal to his experience in the game to justify his positions.

Weird how that works.

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So we are back at personal preference, which is based solely on looks and “ease of use” for you. Great. I also like great looking UIs and I don’t even say that Photon looks bad. Ease of use, however, is a totally different story. Photon requires me to make more clicks to get the same level of information as before; Photon requires me to look more closely at the UI because it has much less space available for information display so that columns in my overview need to be much narrower now, obstructing more information than in the old UI; info in the probe window (probe scanner data is hidden behind icons instead of visible at first glance) is hidden; buttons don’t follow logical patterns or are showing up as buttons at all to distinguish them from non-button icons; using my hangars and holds has become more cumbersome because I don’t see hold fill levels as easily as before, I cannot search them as easily as before when they are in stacks; in my holds I can’t click a simple View Change button to remove empty slots after I have moved stuff out of the hangar, instead I have to right click; and so on and forth.
All little and larger details that make Photon a generally less easy to use experience for me and many other people.

It is not even aesthetically pleasing because it’s just plain flat dark grey. The previous UI themes were aesthetically pleasing because you could have different colors all over your UI and not just in tiny stripes. The OLD old UI was aesthetically because it allowed me to customize the look even better and even more to my preferences.

I am really interested to learn how Photon makes the UI easier to use for you. :slight_smile: I have given you numerous examples how it does not do that for me. Give me a few examples what Photon made easier to use. :slight_smile:

No, they would not, because most people just don’t care, and that’s exactly what CCP counts on. They don’t need feedback, they just need users who simply shut up and accept what they are given.

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Yes, because that’s what this is. You can keep saying "I don’t like this, that and the other, therefore it’s objectively worse, but it will still be all about personal preference.

Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. For example I can see immediately what the security of a destination system is from the drop down menu I use to jump to gates.

It requires you to look more closely at the UI because it’s different from what you are used to. When I first moved over it took time to adjust too. Now it would be just as difficult for me to move back to the old UI.

I like the flat grey. I turn of transparency too.

There are loads, many are just integrated into my play now and I’d be hard pushed to say which are new, but here are a few:

  • Fully collapsible local chat
  • Icons in context meus.
  • System security in context menus
  • Anomalies in context menus
  • Broader color range for system security
  • Multiple overviews
  • Wallet balance in market window

So most people are neither for or against the new UI? Even though according to you it’s causes physical harm to players and is unusable in it’s current state?

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The difference is that information is more hidden than before. I don’t have to look more closely because it’s stylistically different but because the UI hides or obstructs information more.

  • Personal preference, but okay, since it’s from you, it a baller feature.
  • Icons in the context menu are nice.
  • Where are system sec levels in context menus? In the Asset window, they were in the old UI as well. The old UI also had it in Selected Items. I don’t see system sec levels in right click menus on gates.
  • Anomalies in the right click menu are a pain because I keep accidentally expanding that part because Locations is right below it.
  • Broader color range is something the old UI didn’t even need because it had clearly distinguishable colors. Photon needed this current color palette because the first iterations were absolutely horrible. It took some serious hammering of thick CCP skulls to actually turn it into something useful because the first iterations were much worse than in the old UI.
  • Multi Overviews are nice.
  • Wallet balance in the market window is useful in what way?

Most people are neither for or against it, but Brisc and CCP portrait this as “everyone loves it”. I trust you get the difference.

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Those people that you reffer to , whatever that number will be, are a minority compared to the ones affected that have posted in here from day one . You would have known this if you had followed the discussion in here, but you obviously didn’t since you get into hypoteticals.

The fact that a button is minuscule , or that a color is strindetly to the eyes is not personal prefference. That is an axiom !

You are the first person that said such non-sense here, even your precious Brisc admitted otherwise.

Where is your personal, clear , constructive feedback ? Again you don’t even read the forums or blatantly lie / spread misinformation . I’ve given CCP screenshots with the problems and explained as best as I could , clearly and logical for everyone why is that a problem. I’ve done this here in this thread, in the known issues thread, in the Photon UI thread, and it wasn’t just me, there’s plenty of other people that have already done that.

At this point you have lost all credibility, you are just spreading misinformation .

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Ever since Photon was first brought to Sisi there have been many, many complaints about it from many, many players.
Just go take a look at how many hundreds of comments are on every single Photon thread.
That much activity indicates serious problems.

Players have not just been going “reeee”, but have been providing very detailed and constructive criticism, complete with mock-up images of how those problems could be fixed.
Barely any of the the concerns raised have been addressed, despite numerous changes having been made along the development cycle.

Photon is still nowhere near ready for general release, but it was pushed out anyways.

And here we are, on yet another Photon thread with several hundred comments, full of complaints about this shoddy UI.

All we have is arrogant doubling down, dismissals of players concerns and a stubborn refusal to embark on any kind of collaborative effort between players and devs to fix Photon.

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All of you players had been great responding to this General Feedback.
I still hadn’t seen NOTHING shared what CCP is going to do correct anything in this update.
In the three days following this I wish some clarity about the ‘forced Photon UI’ >>

Vision >>
CCP devs on this project wrote the player feedback back was listened to.
I read CSM on the team had replied they had seen none prior.
I read several replies players had sent feedback prior about their vision issues to the program in development. I had too several times.
So which is it?

Representation >>
CSM is on the Photon UI team.
CSM wrote they represent the player base.
CSM later wrote they don’t represent EVE.
I don’t understand the contradiction.

The design/layout >>
I read and get the impression from the CCP devs this was CSM’s baby.
Okay I’m assuming CCP had the player feedback but CSM didn’t from was written so far in this General Feedback.
CSM had wrote several times there is no problem with the new update and justifying because this is what you (CSM) look at and use at YOUR work for years. You wrote that statement.
So … this flawed forced UI program on the EVE players is similar formatted on your antiquated work program YOU still use at work now - is the one making players angry, reporting visual issues, and writing they’re getting headaches during play.
Photon UI was styled/programed after another old program you had been using at work for years was forced onto players?

As CSM wrote to the players we are ‘complainers’ and ‘don’t have the game at heart’. That was and MORE put downs were written and can be found in this General Feedback. Bravo you talking about promoting drunk drinking live on stream for 15 minutes. That’s not great representation promoting EVE and players.

It’s all personal preference, yes. It’s not that what you like and dislike is objective and what I like and dislike is personal preference. So yes, I understand that what I have listed as things I like as my personal likes.

I’m not sure that’s true. What they’ve shown is a high adoption rate, meaning that enough people find it suitably usable as a UI that they can justify shutting down the old UI and can continue to improve the new one without needing to keep propping up the old one. There are people here voicing their likes and dislikes, and that’s great.

But there are also people here accusing CCP of harming players, claiming the devs don’t know what they are doing, declaring it objectively bad and claiming it’s not ready for release. None of these things are constructive in any way.

How can you make this claim? Give me the exact figures of how many traders find the new colors a problem vs how many are able to play with them just fine. I haven’t seen any issues in supply when buying ships so people must still be trading.

Your own orders have an arrow next to them so it’s not like there’s no way to tell which order is yours and which is a highlighted row even if you can’t differentiate between the colors and can’t remember what you clicked on.

Sure it is. I prefer the smaller buttons. I wish I could make my broadcast buttons that size.

Brisc is welcome to his opinion, as are you. But personally I have no problems with the existing margins and use of space.

At this current time I have little to publicly voice. I’ve submitted a couple of bug tickets with screenshots for things I believe are issues but I’m going to wait for things to settle and new changes to come in before I make many suggestions for change. I have said it would be good to have more customization options though. allow people to adjust text colors and highlight colors for example.

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