I am one of them. If you cannot make a simple notification window work without objective issues, the quality of their skills can rightfully be put into question. If they keep insisting on continuing bad development practices just because it fulfills a set design goal that is based on ill guided principles, one can put their skills even further into question.
Photon lacks a boatload of polish and is thus not ready for release, but that has not hindered CCP ever from releasing anything. What I expect is that all the pointed out and screenshot proven issues are taken care of before CCP works on adding new features for Photon. Because, as Multi-Overview has shown, implementing new features before all currently known bugs are removed only causes more issues (Multi-Overview breaks the Dscan, you can read more about in Briscâs CSM summit summary). Most of the issues that were pointed out are really simple to fix: remove padding, increase input field size, return features from the old UI (like search boxes in compacted windows) and increase contrast between background and input areas. Nothing impossible to ask for.
Whats with all the white flashing when in space messages pop up or when clicking ui elements,
Its distracting and ugly.
Is this by design ? or is the rendering just popping stuff up on the screen before its ready for viewing.
Whats with the low contrast bland battleship grey backgrounds and that awful dot pattern background on focused windows.
Was the inspiration for this ui moving files around in window 10 file explorer or some low rent bootstrap web game ?
Youâre correct Baldeda Maxi. I agree with you. I do.
I am that near-blind merchant youâre referencing to.
Other players had posted here, local chat, and in other media without prior visual issues are now experiencing issues too.
I am one who canât adapt to these new UI changes. Over a decade of changes I welcomed them. I smiled at each change. This one update/change is very hard.
Sounds like you had read my attempts to adjust visuals in my prior postings.
I really donât wish to leave EVE.
I heard nothing from the devs or CSM for corrections hoping to come soon. Nothing.
I would like you and other players to write something additional that can help others and I who canât adapt as quickly
/sigh, I have said most people are ambivalent (Arrendis said this and I agreed with him). Some like it, some donât. The bulk of the player base doesnât care and will just adapt to it.
Itâs obvious thereâs a language barrier here so let me be as clear as i can.
I am not the entire CSM. I am a single member.
We are not part of the Photon UI team. The idea of changing the UI was not the CSMâs idea. I was not supportive of the change when it was first proposed to us.
I represent the players, yes - they are who elected me. I do not represent CCP or EVE Online. I am not a developer, nor can I speak on behalf of the entire game, nor do I. My opinions are my own.
I support the current efforts of the Photon team and think they have been doing a good job. They have made tremendous changes to Photon UI since it was introduced last May. They have listened to and incorporated player and CSM feedback on the design.
To my knowledge they are not finished with the UI. nor will they be for quite some time. and I expect they will continue to make changes to make Photon better;
It is not perfect. There are issues with it, and some players are having health issues with it and that must be addressed. Some players have had significant, constructive feedback and I thank them for that. Some people have just complained, misrepresented things Iâve said and others have said. Those people should be ignored.
Yes, I have a beer on stream with my friends. If you have an issue with that, I urge you to watch something else.
Youâre free to call whatever you want into question but when you do things like that all you do is ensure you will be taken less seriously when you have a legitimate criticism.
Polish is not a requirement for release. It needs to be functional and usable, and it is. They can polish it going forwards based on feedback they are given now.
Literally impossible. Even the old UI had bugs which were not fixed.
It doesnât break it, itâs just if you use active overview for d-scan and have multi-overviews, which one is âactiveâ can change. Itâs a good suggestion to allow you to force an overview window to be âactiveâ but to claim itâs broken is a stretch.
Iâm sure that if these suggestions are provided in a constructive way CCP will consider them. That doesnât mean they are going to definitely change them because other people will have different opinions to your own.
So provide constructive feedback on the changes or customization options you will need to improve your experience. Noone is sayin that feedback canât be given, just that having people who refused to opt in during the early stage of testing, then immediately opted out in the later stage of testing and now are claiming itâs unusable, insulting CCP and demanding it be rolled back, those people arenât helpful.
For your specific issue around the market order colors, I agree they are too similar under the âPhotonâ theme. As it stands though there is also an arrow to the left of your own orders. You can also change the theme of your UI which will change the highlight color.
For example, if you pick the Minmatar theme the orders look like this:
Like? Besides, fixing KNOWN bugs is very well possible since they are KNOWN.
It is broken because you actually have to click on a tab to fix dscan. Simply clicking in the another overview window does not fix the broken dscan.
You can have different opinions over your esthetical issues. You cannot have different opinions over obvious bugs. Text boxes cutting off short text is not an esthetical issue, it is a bug. Tabs cutting of short text is a bug, not an esthetical issue. Clipping buttons are not esthetical issues, they are bugs. You confuse esthetical issues with bugs, just like Brisk does. That is your issue, not mine.
That is idiotic as that is how we got to low numbers during other great CCP ideas. Adaptation in gaming is that you go play something else. In this case it also comes with significant money savings too.
If CCP is incapable of getting someone even remotely competent at UI design just give us options to do it ourselves. Then we can have simple well padded UI for people like Brisc who enjoy that but also UIs that are information dense and make complex gameplay viable.
I canât remember what the last one I saw on the old UI was because I havenât used it since September but there were always bugs. You can fix known bugs but there will always be more bugs that show up. To get the list down to zero known bugs before being able to release would be impossible. I think you know this which is why you are setting it as a requirement.
I agree, though thatâs not all you and other here have been claiming as a problem. There being additional blank space in a window for example is not a bug. Text having a contrast level you dislike is not a bug. Buttons being smaller than you would like is not a bug.
I am not confusing anything. I know the difference between someoneâs opinion on how the layout looks and what is an obvious bug.
I also donât get where that other dude keeps saying I am okay with wasted space - I donât recall ever saying that. I did say if you still think thereâs a ton of wasted space, you havenât figured out what compact mode is.
Man, between misspelling my name constantly and consistently putting words in my mouth that arenât there, weâd lose half the posts in here.
The idea that the old UI was perfect or had no bugs seems really weird to me, and given how many complaints Iâve seen you make about the old UI (you just LOVED the Agency window when it came out, I noticed looking at an old thread the other day) I am kind of surprised to hear you demand a list of bugs in the old UI as if it didnât have any.
Then think harder. Unsubstantiated accusations wonât do you good. I donât care about unknown bugs. All I care about are bugs that have been found, documented and are fixable.
Additional wasted space in compacted windows IS a bug. Windows becoming twice as large for no apparent reason other than to accommodate wasted blank space is a bug.
Text being harder to read due to mushy contrasts IS a bug.
That is a funny joke. Which buttons in Photon are smaller than in the old UI? Name an example. Besides that: Buttons that donât show up as buttons are bugs. Buttons not following a common design theme are bugs.
The Agency window is a cobbled together mess that had nothing at all to do with the old UI because it was a new UI approach. Even in Photon, it retained the stupid design decisions that you cannot explain with common sense. For instance, why there are no buttons to side-scroll in the Agents and Missions. You can only access the hidden cards by click dragging. Thatâs an absolutely dumb design choice and one that I have pointed out in the past.
You can put words in peopleâs mouth just as well as you accuse me of doing.
I only have 16 posts in this topic. Bad at counting and using hyperbole, arenât we?
No. Itâs not an âaccusationâ itâs just a statement of fact that the old UI was not 100% bug free.
No, itâs not. A bug is unintentional behavior. Someone choosing to design a window with an area of blank space is not. Same goes for you disliking the contrast. I can read it just fine and think the contrast is on point. Thereâs no indication itâs not at a level theyâve chosen to implement.
If we can just claim that anything we donât like is a bug then the old UI using only a red to green scale for sec status colors was a known, long-term bug, particularly since many colorblind people will struggle with that particular range.
Wasted, excessive blank space in a compacted window is unintentional behavior. Or at least I hope it is. Because what is the point of enabling compact mode on a window when excessive blank spaces reamain?
The color range was not just red and green. It went from red to orange to yellow to light green to blue. It had clearly distinguishable colors because they were vibrant and strong. However, that changed when CCP started messing with Photon and contaminated the old UI with broken colors for Null sec and 0.1 systems. Color-blindness was not an issue for a long time since CCP introduced color-blind modes. If you point out things as bugs, at least put some effort into it.
Old UI
One of the last iterations before CCP actually implemented a good color range in Photon
Before the current color range for sec levels, Photon had a really, really bad color selection for this. This is because CCP is focused on washed out colors in Photon more than anything else. The same problem is now default in the market order highlights and wallet number colors. Washed out, harder to distinguish color palettes instead of strong, vibrant colors like in the old UI.
If youâre not colorblind, sure. Though once you got to the bottom of lowsec it became pretty tricky even for the rest of us.
Which they changed. Is your position now that Photon was bad in the past but they fixed it? What that shows is that they can respond to feedback and improve the UI.
Well no, the problem is that the âmy orderâ color is fixed and is similar to the highlight color in one of the available themes. I provided example above of this being changed to other themes. It should probably be changed in that theme but itâs not the only theme available. Iâm hoping that with the shift to focus fully on Photon, more customizations will be made possible.
Not? Then whatâs the point of compact mode for such a window?
You are right, I havenât even considered that yet. The Caldari theme exasperates this. Good point. The other problem is that grey-scale blue and grey-scale green are way too similar, too.
This is just bad
compared to what we had before.
The Caldari theme seems to have a lot of issues in general. The highlighting of text is way too faint to be clearly noticed. But if one the major and few available themes has this kind of flaws, thatâs a big sign of lacking polish and thought put behind the feature.
Thatâs why you have color-blind modes. The sec level is only one of many issues if you have that impairment, and color-blind modes fix that.
My position is that they donât listen enough; in many cases not at all; and in the cases where they listen, too much time passes and too much effort to convince them of their bad design choices had to be invested until they listen. I mean, just looking at the above example, who in their right mind could think that it is a good idea to make colors less distinguishable in a very important UI element that is supposed to tell you clearly when you go from safe into unsafe territories?
Which is generally the way things work with the things you donât mind. There might be things you like that you can quantify why you like it, but those are generally things you feel strongly about to notice. The things that youâre perfectly ok with but donât feel strongly about? Youâll just shrug and go âyeah, I just like it. Itâs fine. I donât mind itâ.
90% of what people âlikeâ is just things they donât have reason to dislike.
For the most part it makes buttons smaller, gaps between list items smaller and removes or compacts the title. It does not mean there will be no empty space at all.
Itâs not as clear as the old colors for sure, but itâs not bad, I can clearly see the difference without effort. The icon helps too.
From what Iâve seen thatâs not true. They seem to listen to a lot of feedback and make a lot of changes based on it.
Itâs quite obvious you have never done any programming or software development. Just because a bug is known, does not necessarily mean it is possible to be fixed. Even if it is, it may not be economically feasible to be fixed. Sometimes (A lot of times, actually), it is less expensive to start over from scratch than to keep fixing bugs, and then fixing the bugs that result from the previous fix, and so on.
Everytime a bug is reported, several things need to happen from a developerâs point of view:
1: confirm the existance of the bug, and how much impact it has on the project.
2: Determine cause of bug. Sometimes, it is just an obscure typo in the codebase; sometimes it can be an adverse interaction with the OS.
3: Determine how much it is going to cost in time and resources to fix, and whether that expense is worth the benefit.
Windows becoming twice as large for no apparent reason other than to accommodate wasted blank space is a bug.
Which buttons in Photon are smaller than in the old UI? Name an example. Besides that: Buttons that donât show up as buttons are bugs. Buttons not following a common design theme are bugs.
