These are not contradictory.
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I only know her by the reputation and this is the first time I have seen her speak.
It is laughable indeed.
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No accusation of false identity has been made. What I do accuse you in is acting on behalf of Gallentean oppressors.
Oppressors?
Tell me, in what ways Gallente are oppressive?
I admit that they are malleable to corporate interests to perform unethical acts and must not be trusted in its fullest.
However they are the only empire upholding individual liberty, a concept directly opposed to oppression of people, as its core value.
Please give me your best argument.
Consider the position of a permanent minority within a democratic system, Mr. Raholan, especially one whose culture is in tension with the dominant majority, and youâll have some idea of how the Caldari came to view the Gallente as âoppressive.â
Thereâs a lot more to it, of course, but a certain amount of the resentment comes from having been continually outvoted-- not because they were wrong, but because they were few.
(Thereâs also the usual, âOppressionâs fine as long as weâre doing it to each other instead of having it imposed on us from outside.â)
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I should point out that I donât think Aria is necessarily calling the Gallente âespeciallyâ oppressive then, but only that oppression is the end result of any system of governance, and what can be said about the Gallente is that the perpetrators of said oppression are the majority of voters (ostensibly, the practical effects of who holds power in a democracy are certainly more open to interpretation).
There is no denying, though that such is what is happening, itâs simply an attempt to minimize the effect while consequently maximizing the culpable party.
Gallentes are most oppressive in our cluster because they enforce their ideals on others. Back in the day they would rival Amarr Empire for this, but since Heideran reign the Empireâs Reclamation was turned into a peaceful policy, and now itâs the Federation who takes the flag of oppression and enforcing their ideals on others - with weapons and propaganda alike.
Gallente are trying intervenes into affair of different nations, can declare war on a neighbor just because âthey have slaveryâ, âthey donât have democracyâ or whatever else Federal minds consider incorrect⌠for themselves, yet they invade, conquer and suppress other cultures just because they donât accept their way of life.
They are the bullies of our Galactic.
And yes, thank you, Ms. Jenneth. Caldari, unlike Gallente, donât have oppressive tendencies, we donât enforce anyone into our ideals and way of life.
Gallente, instead⌠they bring Freedom - one of the greatest Evil in our cluster, which they worship as fanatics.
And they enforce Democracy - one of the most archaic and inefficient managemenent doctrines, trying to control and subjugate those, who get more progressive management forms to prevent them from developing faster. Speaking about democracy itself - itâs also one of their oppression mechanisms, it works that way that majority can dictate whatever they want to minority.
And thatâs just ideological part!
Lets not forget that we are fighting this war to prevent gallentean occupants and agressors from invading Caldari Prime and Black Rise! Other regions involved in the war are just auxiliary - the CEWMPA conflict started with Gallente plans on oppressing our Black Rise, which we colonized way before them.
With respect, while they may not on the surface be violent as doctrine they still exert pressure on our people (note: I did not say our Republic). I feel even you would agree that the Republic would have reason to look for the well being of those bloodlines comprising it in general. No? Do you not agree with " I feel even you would agree that the State would have reason to look for the well being of those bloodlines comprising it in general." also? Donât kid yourself, they still are violent, they just hide it well. At least the Gallante make their intentions clear.
To sum up what Iâm saying: âSame beast, different pelt.â
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I donât really see the Empire exerting pressure on the Republic, on the other hand, I see the Republic declaring WAR on the Empire just because they donât share views on internal Imperial culture and legal norms (e.g. slavery). So what other people if not Republic youâre talking about? You certainly arenât Caldari, and clearly not Imperian since speaking about them⌠I hope not a Gallentean?..
And I understand that criminals from both sides of conflict make raids into each other territory, ones - to free Imperial criminals, others - to capture illegal targets in Republic for slavery. But, again, the Empire does admit both of these activities are illegal, while Republic⌠even puts one of criminals who did such raids as a head of the State. Really?..
While the Empire has declared the war to be a âCrusadeâ, theyâre still the defenders, only protecting their way of life from foreigners. While Republic is the aggressor. Itâs the Republic who shows its violent and criminal side, not Empire. Hiding they it or not - I can see only what they do. And I pretty much see the Republic doesnât hide its evil and violent side against its neighboring Empire.
And, really, you know, blaming others in being âviolent, but hiding it wellâ, while being openly violent against them is like seeing a splinter in someoneâs eye while not noticing a whole log in your own.
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Back at yaâ, sweetheart.
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Well, for starters this war we started, as you put it was defensive in nature. It really comes from the fact that nonviolent actions doesnât inherently make them good actions. Unless such concepts as financial warfare is not an attack. âI didnât fire a shot, I simply stopped them from eating.â Probably not the best of examples but still. Culturally they attack(ed) us, much like the Gallante try on your people as well.
Lets ignore the criminal aspect here as it appears on both sides (arguably worse on the Amarr side but I admittedly am biased). Majority, if not all of Amarrâs past emperors/empresses have owned slaves, it would not be a stretch to say they mistreated them somewhere in their spirits existence (not exactly sure what they would call it but since their slaves are suffering for their ancestors misdeeds lets turn it to their side in this). These are things that even their own teachings are against. Criminal. Pick and choose all you want, but if my kin in chains are to be judged by their ancestorsâ actions in their logic, I can judge theirs too. Neither side is exempt.
In war, the only just side is your own. Its very easy to fall into this idea that its a defensive war when they are reacting to the counter to their own actions. Obviously they are going to have their own interpretation of the events. Thereâs a reason the victors write history. It puts them in a better light. Why highlight your own misdeeds for all to see?
Honestly I donât believe I am blaming anyone or anything. Its an observation, one that I know my side is not immune to either. I was under the impression the Caldari respected honesty, honor and the like. What displays more honesty? Hiding your misdeeds, or being open about your intentions and making them known?
They wish to subjugate us, they wish to subjugate the Gallante, they wish to subjugate you.
We are very proud to oppose that and our intentions are very clear. Are theirs?
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I strongly disagree, since it was invasion into foreign territory to slaughter and kidnap foreigners. And how about attack on Yulai? Of course, it sort of facilitated our own operation on liberating the Homeworld, but still it was an aggression on all peaceful nations! Again, compare our actions with yours. We just liberated Caldari Prime. With that fleet we could with ease occupy even Gallente Prime, or just destroy it altogether⌠but we didnât, because it wasnât our planet. Elderâs fleet, on the other hand, invaded Core Amarr worlds and was wreaking havoc in there. Thatâs anything but defensive.
I didnât get it, did you want to ignore criminal aspect or emphasize on it? Since, after all, mistreatment is exactly such topic, and completely unrelated to slavery. Anyone can mistreat any other person. Take for example, same Gallenteans and see what they do to PoWs, I doubt even worst holder doesnât do same thing to the slaves! (Well, Nauplius asideâŚ) Putting them into exploding cells, starving almost to death and constant beating, and⌠other thingsâŚ
EXCEPT! They donât judge you for ancestorsâ actions. As I understand the mechanics of slavery, they judge directly the ancestor, enslaving them - thus causing punitive social status lowering, while their children keep living in such low social status. Nobody enslaves these children, they are just born in this status, nobody âpunishesâ them in that regard.
And as a second proof - there are words of MIO officer who was instructing me on enslaving practices. The only allowed category for enslaving are criminals and prisoners of war. Children of criminals and prisoners of war do not fit into that category.
Probably there are some punitive actions, for example, for a whole family of some sort of a holder or highly reputable landlord if they committed something criminal or heretical - but I really donât know, ask Amarr.
Then be honest and donât call that war defensive when youâre the aggressor. For example, when I am saying we are fighting defensive war - that means that we both defending ourselves against Gallente aggression and donât have per se interest in Gallente territories, property, lives, etc. After we won the warzone, there was a Silent Auction with Megacorporations winning developing rights on the occupied systems. But what happened next? Nobody wants them - except Ishukone that somehow wanted to cling to Intaki, they only system they managed to âwinâ in that auction. Gallente colinies are SOO underdeveloped and backward, that itâs enormous moneysink for Corporations instead of a profit source.
On the other hand, Gallente interest is in OUR Black Rise. And your interest is in Imperial subjects (kidnap criminals, murder others (calling them âslaversâ even if theyâre unrelated to slavery) because of hatred)⌠And, again, because YOU want to change THEIR internal ways (e.g. slavery question) - thatâs again, pure aggression against your neighbor.
I wish to do many things and subjugate somebody for sure - yet I donât do that. The State doesnât subjugate anyone either. And the Modern Empire, while they might want to subjugate anyone - they just arenât doing that.
While youâre trying to subjugate the Empire to your willâŚ
Intentions of Amarr people are quite clear to me: to protect their Empire from foreign aggressors.
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This post was flagged, however, as it is crucial to understanding the ensuing exhange below, it will remain unaltered - insult included. Reviewing personnel i remind that the insult utilized is actually milder that racist, derogatory rhetoric often employed by OP.
Stop feeding the troll, Deitra. Thereâs really no point in trying to spark change in those few starved neurons she so proudly calls her brain.
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Iâll concede to that point, somewhat. All of these things you mentioned are parts of the greater war that has raged since the Day of Darkness. The war has ebbed and flowed, but would you really consider it actually ended at any time? Personally I wouldnât.
I donât believe I was clear on this part, sorry. I was referring to not focusing on the criminals running illegal raids, and then transitioned towards The leaders of our peopleâs criminality. I donât see much of a difference since under their own justifications for generational slavery just about every Emperor/Empress is criminal. I donât see any examples of commoners rising to the throne but would love to hear about any honestly.
So its ok to enslave them due to being born under a bad sign? Iâm not trying to dispute you on this I really donât understand their logic half the time when it comes to these parts of their culture. The only thing I can rationalize from this is âyou were enslaved due to being the child of a slave, whose reason for being a slave is for being the child of a slave.â Generational slavery. The punishment or lessons instilled will never actually be utilized, thus how exactly are they bringing them closer to god? Thats more for the audience than directly asking you.
The events you see today are a direct result of our home worlds being invaded by the Amarr. If that never happened none of this would be. There has really never been peace made. The Caldari and Gallante have atleast known some fleeting peace at some point. We have not.
I would say that was slander but I honestly donât think you know what our goals entail.
A smile and kind words hide the knife behind their backs.
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Is it sad Iâm actually enjoying the discussion?
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It is, dear, though most of us have been there - convincing ourselves that an actual, productive discussion can be had.
Alas, itâs like arguing with a propaganda bot. You will just get it to spout more drivel.
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Itâs more less hearing the counters to the points, ya know? I guess patience is as much curse as virtue.
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Eh, starts to loop after a while.
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Ya, I suppose thatâs true.
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I guess itâs true then that I simply wasted my precious time on someone like you, after you agree with such anti-intellectual as Trii.
Thatâs not a topic for discussion about the Empire, slavery, etc. Start your own discussion and stop derailing threads, Vess. And meanwhile, Iâd better find someone more worthy to discuss things with.