What is Causing EVE to Die?

[Chad_Frostpacker]

This is a very interesting
/

Somewhat interesting how I had forgotten what was happening!

//I remember now.

@Glenduil

I do two things in New Eden.

1. What I want to do
2. Work around situations where what I want clashes with what someone else wants.

Yes very interesting!

[Eloken_Toralen]

@Kezrai_Charzai

And feel free to check out all those games where they implemented separate PvP and PvE servers. The PvP servers are ghost towns compared to the PvE.

Rust added a hardcore PvP mode, no map, no safe zone, no compass. The servers running in this mode did not last long, as all it did was put the sweats in one instance. Apparently they only like to fight people who are worse at the game than they are.

[Glenduil]

Gladiator Do you ever find it hard to do your duty Sometimes I do what I want to do the rest of time

[Chad_Frostpacker]

Well Eve Online is sort of hardcore with hiw the insurance doesn’t fully cover the price of ship replacement even after loot had been scooped.

Also remember the downside of blackout local.

I don’t know how much of that would have an effect on pilots quitting, though I would consider asking for a review on the whole ship insurance.

[Eloken_Toralen]

@Bladewise

First of all. We have WAY too many industrialists.

Preach!

@Bladewise

The only way this game will ever “un-die” is if CCP makes massive revisions to the PvP systems in ways that FAVOR PvPers. IE: Un-Nerf Ganking, War-decs, and Suspects.

Incorrect. The most iconic battles occured outside of Empire space, and that is where they will continue to occur. Sov 2.0 was a missed opportunity to shake up the blue doughnuts. If it were not for Goons moving, and INIT resetting, the game would have esentailly wound back to 2016 and the Equinox update nothing more than an extraction of ISK from the null groups to replace all their iHUB stuff.

More PvP ( and the destruction people are so keen for ) will only happen when there is an incentive in the game mechanics to take agressive action, as opposed to the current landscape that rewards people ‘turtling’ behind their walls and ‘just being friends’ with the neighbours.

Its also why scarcity failed, it did not do nearly enough to deplete the large reserves held by long term players by creating any new conflict drivers. People who were already rich, just got more rich and laughed at all the poors squabbling over the scraps knowing they had sufficient wealth to ride out the storm.

Its kind of obvious the player base decided to avoid conflict in response to scarcity, now CCP are messing with insurance in a belated effort to get people to use caps again, with the hope people will feel like dreads somehow become more disposable because insurance pays out more.

[Eloken_Toralen]

@Chad_Frostpacker

Well Eve Online is sort of hardcore with hiw the insurance doesn’t fully cover the price of ship replacement even after loot had been scooped.

With many doctrines using faction or T2, insurance is pretty meaningless.

@Chad_Frostpacker

Also remember the downside of blackout local.

Downside for who? Blackout was glorious, the playerbase as a collective group gave a big middle finger to CCP and their kowtowing to the vocal PvP is everything protagonists. It also finally resulted in changes to cyno fields after Boat and Mittens bragged about their umbrella.

Was blackout dumb? Probably the dumbest CCP change since the summer of rage, for sure.

Was it all bad? No. A bunch of changes were implemented, just several years too late.

@Chad_Frostpacker

I don’t know how much of that would have an effect on pilots quitting, though I would consider asking for a review on the whole ship insurance.

Ship insurance (and SRP ) should not exist, as its the antithesis of the EVE tagline “Do not fly what you cannot afford to loose”

[Bladewise]

@Eloken_Toralen

Incorrect. The most iconic battles occured outside of Empire space, and that is where they will continue to occur. Sov 2.0 was a missed opportunity to shake up the blue doughnuts. If it were not for Goons moving, and INIT resetting, the game would have esentailly wound back to 2016 and the Equinox update nothing more than an extraction of ISK from the null groups to replace all their iHUB stuff.

More PvP ( and the destruction people are so keen for ) will only happen when there is an incentive in the game mechanics to take agressive action, as opposed to the current landscape that rewards people ‘turtling’ behind their walls and ‘just being friends’ with the neighbours.

Its also why scarcity failed, it did not do nearly enough to deplete the large reserves held by long term players by creating any new conflict drivers. People who were already rich, just got more rich and laughed at all the poors squabbling over the scraps knowing they had sufficient wealth to ride out the storm.

Its kind of obvious the player base decided to avoid conflict in response to scarcity, now CCP are messing with insurance in a belated effort to get people to use caps again, with the hope people will feel like dreads somehow become more disposable because insurance pays out more.

So I agree that the largest battles take place in null. The issue is that we do not retain PvP minded players like we used to and the hook used to be HS PvP. Then as players got more experienced they’d move to Null if they wanted more organized group play or a bigger challenge. We no longer have that pipeline.

Hell a great example is the suspect system. The logi change (that was touted as being for wardecs) DESTROYED the suspect baiting community because we have no incentive to play with each other any more because we now have no way to escalate or assist each other in engagements. This has a massively damaging side effect though as well. We also have no more incentive to recruit and train new players (which we used to do like crazy).

I cannot tell you how many times I’ve ransomed someone to the point of getting them to eject from their ship and give it to me, only for them to not be mad and instead join my band of misfits. Now? I have to turn them away. I have no place to put them, no way to train them, and the barrier of entry is so high isk-wise that they’d have to be crazy to sink that much IRL money into a proper baiting setup only to be my COMPETITION and repeatedly fail because they do not have my guidance. Actually, I don’t even suspect bait anymore because of this and I’m pretty sure the last remaining suspect baiter that knows ALL the tricks is Krig Povelli.

This sort of thing has eroded the PvP scene and is at least half the reason we have a blue donut now. There is no path for a PvP minded player. None. Nada. Hell even as accessible as suicide ganking can be, look at the uedama killboards. It’s barren. There’s literally 1 successful guy that plays regularly. Then Kusion may log on a couple times a month. Do you know how many newer groups/players used to be there? AG ran them all off as CCP slowly nerfed ganking to the point you have to be an ACE to be profitable. Now it’s JUST the vets and I mean like 10+ year vets. This trickles up to null-sec. You guys quite literally cannot recruit PvPers because none of them stick with the game long enough to make it to null.

[Eloken_Toralen]

@Bladewise

The issue is that we do not retain PvP minded players like we used to and the hook used to be HS PvP.

In my first 6 months of eve, most of the people I played with left because the ‘optimum’ stragetgy for defeating the wardecks was to go back to playing world of tanks until the wardec was over. None of us wanted to PvP, we were just a bunch of scrub miners and industry folk who looked at PvP as a net loss activity.

@Bladewise

Then as players got more experienced they’d move to Null if they wanted more organized group play or a bigger challenge. We no longer have that pipeline.

Whilst my experince is not representative, moving to Null was our last attempt to avoid the war dec mechanic, as groups like P I R A T didn’t go into null. Took awhile for people to get the message to stay our of high sec, but by then an Orca or two had been lost along with the players that flew them.

@Bladewise

Hell a great example is the suspect system. The logi change (that was touted as being for wardecs) DESTROYED the suspect baiting community

Nothing of value was lost. High security war declarations are declared articles of war with defined rules, not the machinations of a bunch of randos doing elite can flipping on the hope to gank an unwary pilot looking in an abandond can.

@Bladewise

This has a massively damaging side effect though as well. We also have no more incentive to recruit and train new players (which we used to do like crazy).

Neutral 3rd party logistics was an ugly shade of grey that needed to be removed. Fight, or do not fight, under no circumstance was it ever appropriate for a conflic to have unagressible logi just parachute into the middle of a conflict without any skin in the game.

@Bladewise

I cannot tell you how many times I’ve ransomed someone to the point of getting them to eject from their ship and give it to me, only for them to not be mad and instead join my band of misfits.

They probably just watched the eve video where you join the corp of your enemy to one day get director roles to clean the corp out whilst everyone is asleep.

@Bladewise

Now? I have to turn them away. I have no place to put them, no way to train them, and the barrier of entry is so high isk-wise that they’d have to be crazy to sink that much IRL money into a proper baiting setup only to be my COMPETITION and repeatedly fail because they do not have my guidance. Actually, I don’t even suspect bait anymore because of this and I’m pretty sure the last remaining suspect baiter that knows ALL the tricks is Krig Povelli.

Good, these people are better off doing other things elswhere in the game.

@Bladewise

This sort of thing has eroded the PvP scene and is at least half the reason we have a blue donut now.

The blue doughnut existed before the logi suspect change. One did not cause the other.

@Bladewise

There is no path for a PvP minded player. None. Nada. Hell even as accessible as suicide ganking can be, look at the uedama killboards. It’s barren.

Factional Warfare, Null. A reduction in Suicide Ganking in Uedama is the natural outcome of an enviornment that punishes people for flying anything worth more than the value of the ships required to kill it.

@Bladewise

Do you know how many newer groups/players used to be there? AG ran them all off as CCP slowly nerfed ganking to the point you have to be an ACE to be profitable.

Victims of their own success. They got greedy and CCP changed the rules, this isn’t the first time and it won’t be the last.

@Bladewise

You guys quite literally cannot recruit PvPers because none of them stick with the game long enough to make it to null.

Actually we try and get them before they learn bad habits in High Security space, and to show them there is no “Police” force more effective than one where miscreant troublemakers can be shot first and questions asked later.

[Bladewise]

@Eloken_Toralen

In my first 6 months of eve, most of the people I played with left because the ‘optimum’ stragetgy for defeating the wardecks was to go back to playing world of tanks until the wardec was over. None of us wanted to PvP, we were just a bunch of scrub miners and industry folk who looked at PvP as a net loss activity.

No the optimal strategy for defeating wardecs is looking at the attackers killboards, see what their intentions are, see what ships they’re bringing, and ■■■■■■■ wipe the floor with them when they come for you citadel. Expecting it to be anything else is pure entitlement.

@Eloken_Toralen

Whilst my experince is not representative, moving to Null was our last attempt to avoid the war dec mechanic, as groups like P I R A T didn’t go into null. Took awhile for people to get the message to stay our of high sec, but by then an Orca or two had been lost along with the players that flew them.

That’s the thing, you shouldn’t be able to avoid PvP at a certain level of success. Sounds like y’all got to that point so grats. But yea, welcome to Eve my dude. If it were any other way all your PvE ventures would be literally worthless

@Eloken_Toralen

Nothing of value was lost. High security war declarations are declared articles of war with defined rules, not the machinations of a bunch of randos doing elite can flipping on the hope to gank an unwary pilot looking in an abandond can.

One of the oldest and most emblematic communities was lost. The suspect system only seemed unfair because folks join a game where every single system in the game is meant to facilitate people blowing up each other’s ships and then are surprised when they get their ship blown up. You fail the realize how many incredible fights used to happen because of suspect baiting. It was a MASSIVE nerf to content and removed more playstyles than probably any other singular change.

@Eloken_Toralen

Neutral 3rd party logistics was an ugly shade of grey that needed to be removed. Fight, or do not fight, under no circumstance was it ever appropriate for a conflic to have unagressible logi just parachute into the middle of a conflict without any skin in the game.

This space bushido ■■■■ is literally the oldest and most cucked ■■■■■■■■ in gaming history and it’s so ■■■■■■■ silly. NOBODY TAKES FIGHTS THEY’RE NOT SURE THEY’RE GONNA WIN. Like literally nobody. Without shades of gray, content would never happen.

@Eloken_Toralen

They probably just watched the eve video where you join the corp of your enemy to one day get director roles to clean the corp out whilst everyone is asleep.

You know it’s funny, I’ve done this many times.

@Eloken_Toralen

Good, these people are better off doing other things elswhere in the game.

They literally will just go play league of legends my dude. Y’all are killing the game with this entitled mentality.

@Eloken_Toralen

The blue doughnut existed before the logi suspect change. One did not cause the other.

This SORT of thing. The PvP nerfs started in 2016 and haven’t stopped since. Though I will agree the logi change happened after most of the damage was already done. Still, it did SO much damage to the PvP scene.

@Eloken_Toralen

Factional Warfare, Null. A reduction in Suicide Ganking in Uedama is the natural outcome of an enviornment that punishes people for flying anything worth more than the value of the ships required to kill it.

No it’s the outcome of repeated nerfs to try to keep entitled PvE-minded players like yourself who expect to play WoW in space happy. Except you always seem to ignore the fact that your PvE would be worthless without large amounts of destruction. Hell, we don’t even need PvE only players. Y’all are leeches. You inflate the currency and offer little to no real content in return. It’s WHY suicide ganking was so effective. It wasn’t that it was OP. It was that y’all are clueless about how the mechanics work and there are WAY more of you than is sustainable for a PvP-mmo.

@Eloken_Toralen

Victims of their own success. They got greedy and CCP changed the rules, this isn’t the first time and it won’t be the last.

Literally victims of terrible changes and that’s it. Suicide ganking would still be going strong if it weren’t for these nerfs. These nerfs only happened because CCP is ■■■■■■■ clueless as to what is good for this game. PvE players whine like crazy about it and since CCP is ■■■■■■■ clueless they’re like “sure, why not. not like we have any better ideas”. Notice player counts still dropping to all time lows every year?

@Eloken_Toralen

Actually we try and get them before they learn bad habits in High Security space, and to show them there is no “Police” force more effective than one where miscreant troublemakers can be shot first and questions asked later.

You mean you try to get PVEers. You don’t have PvPers. You might have people willing to PvP IF THEY HAVE TO. But you don’t get players logging on every day looking for real content. Just krabs looking to krab. Much like yourself it seems.

[Bladewise]

Actually I’m not sure why I even bothered typing all of that. The simple fact that you can’t see why you shouldn’t be able to have an impervious citadel in High Sec reeks of entitlement.

[Argel_OTF2]

@Eloken_Toralen

In my first 6 months of eve, most of the people I played with left because the ‘optimum’ stragetgy for defeating the wardecks was to go back to playing world of tanks until the wardec was over. None of us wanted to PvP, we were just a bunch of scrub miners and industry folk who looked at PvP as a net loss activity.

@Bladewise

No the optimal strategy for defeating wardecs is looking at the attackers killboards, see what their intentions are, see what ships they’re bringing, and ■■■■■■■ wipe the floor with them when they come for you citadel. Expecting it to be anything else is pure entitlement.

I mean this is it, in a nutshell. The first person makes a reasonable point that is not really about what anyone thinks is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, just the factual idea that if other people turn the game into something a person does not want to play, and there is no way to avoid it, then these players leave and go and play something else. This benefits nobody, even the gankers, who ultimately lose targets.

The reaction is this wailing by people who somehow have the nerve to call others entitled because they don’t want to play their version of a supposed “sandbox” game.

This is why EVE is dying, because they invested all of their energy in pleasing a bunch of people every other game would have understood immediately can never be sated, save by sacrificing new players at the altar of their fragile psyches. The likes of this guy and @Gloria_Exercitus have no interest in the game’s future. They care only about their ability to make other people miserable. When the tables are turned and anyone proposes that perhaps EVE would be better for the majority, if new players were able to play the game in a way they were comfortable with, and it may limit the way gankers play, then they rage about how quickly they would quit, because they know that if those ideas end up being listened to, there’s a risk that CCP may actually consider it.

Anyway…

If it were me I would turn highsec into a fully weapons free zone, Heavily incentivise play in Low and Null for rewards that even low-level capsuleers could easily harvest, make it easier to get there while not getting gate camped, and make it so that every ship could only be targeted by 1x scram. I’d then make it so that insurance effectively replaced the ship properly (all covered parts delivered back to a station of choosing, increasing levels of insurance to cover high cost modules). Get those players back in the game, make it inconvenient, have them lose things, but let them have another go with what they’ve learned as quickly as possible.

I would absolutely guarantee you EVE would grow again. 100%. There would be jeopardy, there would be incentive, there would be risk for all parties, there would be wins and losses, but most importantly, there would be choice as to the level you were willing to engage. I guarantee lots of players would make that choice willingly, rather than feeling that it either wasn’t worth it, or that the risk of being killed before they even got started was too great.

Or I don’t know, just keep defending the game that has declined in player numbers consistently for the last decade.

[Glenduil]

@Eloken_Toralen

Factional Warfare, Null. A reduction in Suicide Ganking in Uedama is the natural outcome of an enviornment that punishes people for flying anything worth more than the value of the ships required to kill it.

Calculated by what? An army of T1 Catalysts with T2 fits can bring down basically anything. The biggest ships taken down by some of the smallest. Ship warfare in Eve has always been like that. It’s the only reason ganking exists. Also, they don’t even have to equip warp scrams- they can just bump. An entire class of players exploiting a mechanic that makes a perfectly good PvP mod totally obsolete. Why? Because Warp Scrams have counters. Now, they can bring in a 3rd party bumper that has no counter. If the defender tries to blow up the bumper in order to escape, Concord will destroy his ship along with all of the gankers’ ships. There’s no counter.

And you wonder why people have begun to question the battle mechanics of this game.

And no- before all of you swarm me with, “But… no safe place!!! Be prepared to lose…” I know. PvP happens. I’m okay with that. But what I said is absolutely true.

@Bladewise

Do you know how many newer groups/players used to be there? AG ran them all off as CCP slowly nerfed ganking to the point you have to be an ACE to be profitable.

Because of the legal exploits that are still used today.

Edit: You say that Logis shouldn’t be able to be neutral, but gankers scream, “Shut up!!!” whenever anyone brings up a neutral bumping ship.

[Aallin_Gicquet]

Maybe I missed something here… But as a somewhat casual player myself. One can do anything you want. It does mention setting goals, managing expectations. Getting enough money(ISK) to buy those things that the ship needs.

So I am a little confused as to how you think it is deceptive?

[Glenduil]

@Eloken_Toralen

Actually we try and get them before they learn bad habits in High Security space, and to show them there is no “Police” force more effective than one where miscreant troublemakers can be shot first and questions asked later.

Troublemakers being “Anyone who dares fly into Null space”. The whole goal of being in Null is to make enough money in your disposable ship to make the trip worth it. Null works for that and works well. It serves no other purpose though.

[Zaera_Keena]

One goes into null with dreams of becoming an F1 monkey or AFK Mining BOT.

[Glenduil]

Doesn’t everyone do that in High too?

[Aallin_Gicquet]

@Bladewise

All the folks saying “we need industrialists for the PvPers to have ships” or “scarcity has hurt the game” blablabla are TOTALLY missing the mark. First of all. We have WAY too many industrialists

So you are complaining that itis a target rich environment? Interesting.

@Bladewise

The only way this game will ever “un-die” is if CCP makes massive revisions to the PvP systems in ways that FAVOR PvPers. IE: Un-Nerf Ganking, War-decs, and Suspects.

HMMM play my way? Really?

@Bladewise

Whatever good you would do for the market by increasing the supply of goods doesn’t matter because of the damage you do by never losing anything and having an ever increasing isk amount. It inflates the currency to the moon and raises plex prices to the ■■■■■■■■ we have now (I can still remember a month subscription costing 250mil).

Not sure I agree with you. The market is more complex than you think. A little FYI the market is modeled after the NASDAQ. Which is why it is a little more than involved than most game markets.

So your rant that there are too many industrialists and PVEr’s doesn’t quite hit the mark. And while Plex is certainly high at the moment.We will see how long it stays high. As with any market trend. There will be a at the very least a down trend or a market readjustment. It is what makes playing the market for many so exciting. Lets see who can lose the most Isk and who can keep the most. If you ask me when either will happen. Sorry, my crystal ball is in the shop for repairs. So I can not say just when it will happen.

By the way not all industrialists do PVE or most do participate in a war when their corp gets wardec’d. Some even gank on the side as well. The game allows for a lot of different playstyles. Just because you do not like that not everyone is PVPing. Well that falls on deaf ears.

Also while I think your theory about the introduction of the trigs is nice. I think it is really a case of an ongoing larger story. Not a response to not enough destruction happening. But that is my opinion. In fact I think it makes Eve even more intriguing… But that is just my 2 cents… Isk… whatever…

[Gloria_Exercitus]

@Argel_OTF2

This is why EVE is dying, because they invested all of their energy in pleasing a bunch of people every other game would have understood immediately can never be sated, save by sacrificing new players at the altar of their fragile psyches. The likes of this guy and @Gloria_Exercitus have no interest in the game’s future. They care only about their ability to make other people miserable.

My God…what a load of utter rubbish.

It is people like myself who genuinely care about the game…unlike the faux ‘care’ of those who speak with forked tongue while they want to reduce the game to Teletubbie LaLa Land and who poison the narrative for potential noobs with ‘Eve Is Dying’ threads.

@Argel_OTF2

If it were me I would turn highsec into a fully weapons free zone

Which totally makes my point. You don’t care about protecting the Eve that has existed for almost 22 years. You want to convert it into a completely different game…whilst all along pretending that you care about the game.

Frankly, if people with your mindset are leaving the game…it can only be good for its preservation. So stop poisoning the well and go play Farmville.

[Kezrai_Charzai]

@Eloken_Toralen

Its kind of obvious the player base decided to avoid conflict in response to scarcity

This was obvious from the day scarcity was announced. It was a poor attempt on CCP’s part. Scarcity makes things more expensive, and harder to replace. If my warships are now more expensive and harder to replace, whyever would I now take more risk with them?

In fact, you make player stockpiles even more valuable so they are less likely to want to thrown them away in battles? And for what? It’s not like huge battles result in any massive gains.

Scarcity only ‘drives conflict’ when it’s so tight that entities can’t continue operating without taking more from somewhere else. Scarcity set that tight would ruin EVE, since EVE is far more about economics than it is about PvP battles.

EVE actually has very few drivers for conflict, and poor drivers for PvP in general. People only PvP when they both profit from it and are almost guaranteed a win - ganking, wardeccing, gate camps, ambushes, etc. Or when they have something to gain and reasonable shot at making a profit from it, eg. FW. Or when they think they can control a space and extract a profit from that, eg. WH and Null sov.

Notice that the common element is “makes a profit” and “reasonable to very high chance of success”.

EVE PvP causes losses, people avoid loss unless their chance of gain outweighs it. It’s not rocket science. Blowing up someone else’s ships is one of the least profitable, highest risk things you can do in EVE, so players avoid it until the profit situation is in their favor.

In general, PvP-fit ships are not in themselves a target of value (they’re meant to be disposable, after all). This is one of the key internal problems in EVE, is that it’s trying to be a PvP game but it effectively discourages most PvP unless it’s a near-guaranteed win with a profit motive.

In general, of course. There are players who say they don’t care about profit, they just want a ‘good fight’, and they cover all their income needs with a few Plex purchases or whatever. But those players are vastly in the minority.

And Bladewise is just another gutless whiner farming safe kills in high sec while pretending he’s a mighty warrior. High sec ‘PvP’ is just a sideshow for spineless ISK farmers who can’t be bothered producing their own ISK or facing real combat, so they need a nice safe turkey shoot to farm.

They’re not only irrelevant, they’re directly harmful to the game overall, and CCP has done well to restrict them in the few ways it has. EVE needs a better grasp on actual conflict drivers, not more scavenging vultures.

[Kezrai_Charzai]

@Bladewise

PvP minded players like we used to and the hook used to be HS PvP. Then as players got more experienced they’d move to Null if they wanted more organized group play or a bigger challenge. We no longer have that pipeline.

We never did. High sec PvP only promotes the mindset of gutless, safe, profit-from-every kill loot farming. Not do those players (in general) “learn PvP” and then move to null. They stay in highsec forever farming easy kills. Feel free to look at CODE. or Safety. or any high sec wardeccer corp.

EVE certainly needs a growth and progression path to funnel players away from high sec PvE and into more challenging parts of the game, as well as reasonable methods for doing so.

But loot-farming easy safe kills in high sec definitely isn’t that growth path.