What is Eve Online?

My undergraduate is in psychology. I am currently a graduate student of mental health counseling (which is adjacent to psychology). But yeah I’ll weigh in:

So, first off; in general people have a negativity bias. We perceive, process, and interpret negative information faster and more readily than we do positive information. Negative stimuli have more emotional salience to us than do positive stimuli. This is evolutionarily adaptive: you can only be so happy, so healthy, so comfortable. But you can be very, very dead. Death is the ultimate negative consequence and it is permanent. So we notice and process adverse stimuli more than positive stimuli because the benefit of something can never be as high as the negative consequence of something else: namely, death. You didn’t notice some blueberries; okay, so you’re a little hungrier than you might have been but you’ll live. You didn’t notice that colorful frog? Now you’re dead. While this evolved to keep us alive, it tends to generalize to, well, everything. The “Princess and the Pea” is a very apt tale. In Buddhism it’s called “duhka” - the general “unsatisfactoriness” of life. Nothing is ever quite good enough, and bad things seem so bad, without limit to how bad they can be.

A loss feels like it hurts more than a gain feels like a pleasure. This is why compromise is so difficult: a compromise means a gain, but also a loss. Humans want things optimized: only gains. Any loss incured feels like it “taints” and “spoils” the gain. And this has been replicated in research over and over. So whenever people complain, we have to try to take an objective look: how bad is it actually? But we also have to take the emotional valence into consideration, because people will not always respond to an objective analysis. We respond emotionally, even the most “rational” of us. Haidt describes it best when he draws on the analysis of the elephant and the rider. Our “rational, enlightened” selves are the rider. But try as he might, the rider just can’t seem to make the elephant - our more primal, instinctual, and emotional-driven selves - to go where he wants it to. Aristotle had a similar analogy of the charioteer and the two dogs, or was it the dog and the pig? I forget. But we saw this play out with the “waste” mechanic: despite all the wonderful and good changes made to mining, and despite the fact that waste is a backloaded mechanic that doesn’t actually affect anyone’s per hour yield, people still whine and whine and whine about “waste” or “residue”, simply because of negative perception and negativity bias.

Anyway:

As far as attitude: I tend to think of things in terms of personality psychology, and for this we have the term “temperament”, although that is falling out of use a bit. Temperament refers to your general tendency to respond to stimuli in a certain way, and to your general tendency to adopt emotional states. For example, someone who is very high in trait “neuroticism” responds to negative stimuli (perceived or actual) more rapidly, to a higher degree, and for a long period of time than someone who is lower in that trait. Temperament is largely biological in nature, but their are environmental influences.

To speak to your infographic: people are very adaptive and we are amazing mimics. We observe other people, and when those people are successful (at things we value), we tend to create a “model” of them in our brains and try to “act them out” in order to get to where we want. We also see other people behaving certain ways, and failing, and try to avoid behaving in those ways (the whole “making an example out of someone” thing).

People also respond to incentives and do seek the most efficient ways to get what they want, whether that be ISK/hr or kills/hr, or social influence, whatever. So anytime there’s a mechanics change to the game, people will respond based on incentives.

A final note: people don’t always know what’s best for them. Yes, HiSec miners may want to be able to mine in perfect safety and immunity from being PvP’d. People want things to be easy and safe for them. But ease and safety is not actually good for people. It results in boredome, a loss of felt meaning or significance to things, and can lead to depression and existential dispair and, in extreme cases, death by suicide. At best, you have a bunch of bored nihilists who want some excitement and find all sorts of excuses, either political and ideologically based, or more honest and just straight bitter and resentful, to go out and cause all sorts of chaos and suffering in others. In the context of an online game: people get what they want (safety, ease, mechanics that favor their playstyles), then become bored and leave for something more interesting - never once making the connection that it was the challenge and difficulty that kept them engaged. And that is a big problem in EVE Online right now.

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Half the arguments here are about things people have not actually said. You can all but guarantee that someone will take half a sentence and make it mean something completely different to what was actually meant in the full context.

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To me, EVE Online is a space sandbox where players can do who they want and without limit. All that’s required is patience and persistence. You can choose to work with others or against them, or even alone by yourself. It’s not a theme park where you follow a defined path, but rather something where you plot your own course. Any decisions made in EVE Online affect both others and yourself, and also come with risks paired with reward.

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Elite forum PVPers (whatever that’s supposed to mean) come into an argument with a narrative to push and then scan posts to find a word or phrase they can misquote to push it with.

Mr Epeen :sunglasses:

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What I find most amusing is how people defend their personal status quo under the guise of lecturing about ’ that’s how Eve works’. They’re not really explaining ‘how Eve works’…they are defending their own personal interests against the slightest suggestion of change that might affect it.

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Nice post, thank you. To some people (not meaning you here) it’s important to focus on the mentality of other posters and their attitudes. Valid discussion but not my own focus.

The key psychological issues as they apply to EVE are “what motivates players? What makes players want to continue to play? How can you craft an engaging player experience without either turning away most of your players due to negative stimuli nor turning the game into a boring loot pinata that quickly fails to interest?”

There are also issues about “what is the attitude of the developers towards the player base and how is that affecting game development?” but slightly different topic there.

Some people feel CCP has failed their expectations to such a degree, they’re too disappointed to play anymore, and/or actively want CCP to fail - the true bittervets. Other people think the players are the problem, EVE is okay, and any complaints are simply “poisoning the well” of EVE’s potential.

My personal belief is, the inherent risk and extra challenge of EVE is a significant part of why players come to EVE and also why many stay. There are other aspects of course though most of those aspects (eg. the social aspect) are not unique to EVE.

I also believe there are “good game design principles” based on human psychology and behavior patterns, that aren’t impossibly hard to figure out. I believe those principles could be used to enhance the social and interactive parts of EVE, to encourage more and better types of PvP (meaning actual ship combat against an opponent that represents some threat), and to enhance the players experience of the lore and action of the EVE IP.

I believe the responsibility for learning and employing better game design lies on CCP, not on the players to “adapt their playstyle to be satisfied with poor design”. Many players may not know what they want, and would be unhappy if they actually got it. That doesn’t excuse bad design on the developers part - it makes it even more their responsibility to do a good job.

As for how I personally address discussing EVE design issues, I learned a long time ago that it was quite ineffective saying “Hey guys, really great job so far, but maybe you could just take a look at this one issue over here. Here’s my thorough analysis of the situation: (yadda yadda)”. (This by the way is Shipwreck’s stated preferred ‘Better Vet’ approach. It has it’s application in some areas.)

I learned that it’s extremely ineffective to try to alter a game developers approach through posting as a customer. However, there are a few things devs do sometimes respond to. Extreme discontent. Player revolts. Sharp drops in income. Public exposure of bad decision making.

As psychology has proven many times over, an irritant provokes a greater response than praise, particularly where praise isn’t deserved.

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No Drac! don’t take the bait

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I was just going to say I agree with this:

I think I should just let Kezrai post for me…

A real response this time, What makes eve great in my mind is that Combat in Eve is exponential where as in other games its addition, people keep saying N+1 N+1 but eve defies that. If you learn the game mechanics down its last bolt the smallest of parts and use absolutely everything to your advantage such a situation where 1 v 20 is possible and that to me is amazing.

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topicgenderneutralepleetjestrigglypuff

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I agree to a point :smiley: but you have to take into account that if you post ideas often enough with enough logic and reasoning sometimes CCP will start to think its their own idea and impliment it into the game, even if you get no credit for it its still a win imo :smiley:

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Yes, for approximately the first 10 years of my “game forum posting history”, I believed this was the best approach.

That is how I learned it was ineffective.

Feel free to provide any specific counter-examples you have on hand.

You have to remember that Black out (no local) was posted about for like 6 years or something before CCP tried it out lol. I guess things take time.

What I find interesting is that CCP implemented lots of rotating event’s now + arenas with weird mod’s I feel that these 2 things give them the ability to temporarily implement player ideas for a small duration for testing purposes before actually implementing it into the game. If you want to know eve’s future maybe researching what CCP has done with these 2 area’s might give clue’s.

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Well the solution to AFK cloaky camping came from the AFK cloaky camping thread, because enough people kept on stating that they wanted something to decloak people who were AFK. It took a very long time but it happened…

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Unbrella’s got nerfed, Capital projection got nerfed all very much needed and pushed hard by the public. Now if only Citadel’s loose the ability to point/scram things so that a ship is needed to do that.

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So I would say the takeaway here is “things might get changed if they have a fairly massive, long-term player commitment to demanding them”.

Now, do you figure those things came about because players were politely suggesting some improvements to the game? Or were they large, long-term reactions to things players considered broken?

I think that they were long term reactions to broken things. It is pretty clear that despite the doom and gloom from many HTFU posters that Eve developers want to maintain that difficulty.

Take bumping which is anotherone that was changed after a lot of discussion, it is still useful in situations, it was not removed. The Observatory costs enough ISK to make most people want to use it with real thought to when and how. I thought that they did not want to solve these issues because they saw the destruction from them as a good thing, but that is a bit of a guess on my part.

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Nope.

Yup.

Mr Epeen :sunglasses:

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Bit of both, I’ve seen idea’s posted that where not by the masses and have been implemented. It all depends.

For example:

And now we see overheating bonus for mwd and ab and it works awesomely lol.

How to say !

Isn’t it that we are served a free psychoanalysis session now on this forum, whenever we need it. Hypocrisy therefore reaches heights on this forum, all against a background of heated pseudo-science and without experience with regard to lived reality.

It is pathetic !

@Xuixien ,

Fundamental question for your small studies and your personal guidance - you will need it - case study with EvE Online:

Do you think that the 20% of players who decided during 2011 to suddenly unsubscribe from EvE Online still didn’t know what was really best for them after reading this?

“The pure subscription model for games, even though quite well suited for the selling of holistic experiences, takes little advantage of this part of human nature. Many players will actually voice the opinion that adding any kind of consumerism to such a game will ruin their experience. Those same players will buy PLEX without any qualifications to get instant access to that ship they just “need to have right now” and they might even go as far as buying a $500 leather jacket that matches the one their avatar is wearing. And all of these expenditures will actually improve their experience of the game and make them feel better about it and about themselves. […] Virtual goods sales can be positive in certain circumstances. However, when you introduce something that can create an imbalance where others can’t compete with their spending power, you inevitably decrease their satisfaction with your product. As such it is essential that a game is designed from the ground up to incorporate any major virtual goods sales that fall outside of this. PLEX (and time codes before that) work extremely well as they not only largely replace a black market for ISK [that CCP covets], but provide substantial benefits to other players in the form of offering additional subscription options. The negatives caused from the ISK for real money trade such as hacking and botting are reduced as their profitability declines. PLEX differs from typical virtual goods sales because we allow players to pay their subscriptions this way using in-game currency.”, Fearless - Greed is good? - The Gordon Gekko Issue, by CCP, Volume I, May 2011, 13 p…

These leaked CCP-papers… Cause of all CCP’s ills in 2011… As I always say, the devil is always in the details… And you won’t forget that…

Q. Attacking the black market through PLEX was probably one of the worst rookie mistakes CCP had ever made in two decades, with the black market single-handedly demonstrating at the time, the healthy state of the persistent world of New Eden; what a waste, since that’s how CCP’s ISK money printing was about to hit the New Eden market, causing a virtual level of inflation comparable to the great crisis of 1929 IRL…

In case your answer to this question is still yes despite reading/re-reading this key passage, I cannot advise you enough to read the following article which we applaud:

https://tagn.wordpress.com/2021/06/23/incarnated-a-decade-later/

It’s hard, isn’t it, to hold the helm of a ship, especially when the ship is a longship that has been taking on water from all sides for more than 10 years? This is why sometimes you have to agree to get help. However, who better than the dissatisfied part of the gaming community (the black sheep of Hilmar), could really help CCP on this point?

I’ll let you think about it…

To be continued… Because I am indeed here to attempt the impossible to know, an inception in the mind of a Viking, and not the least, since it is that of Hilmar… This is my challenge!

Have a good evening.

Ully Loom