What would happen if we double jump range?

(Old Pervert) #1

I’m not talking about supers. Regular caps only.

More fights. That’s what would happen. Double jump range and you halve the number of jumps it takes to reach content.

There’s still fatigay so it’s not going to be like it was when super fleets could traverse all of New Eden in minutes. More to the point, if you double jump range, there will end up being more capital escalations because you’ll have more stuff in range.

But Old Pervert, you perverted old coot, that means they’ll hot drop on us poor subcaps more! No, they already drop on you. We hear you whining about it nearly every day. Will they be as keen to hot drop you if they know that their less-than-blue neighbours can drop them before they can evac? Maybe, but it’ll certainly increase their risk.

Capital umbrellas are already big. They’ve already got systems covered. Increasing jump range would increase this coverage, but that’s an academic concern only - the space they want covered is already covered.

If you increase jump range, you make it easier for neighbours to punch in deeper against each other. Dread bombs are disposable, supers are not. Giving them extra range offers the ability to punch in deeper and counterdrop suicide caps.

If you increase jump range, neighbours can drop regular caps on each other more frequently. Which ultimately means more dead capitals.

(Dyver Phycad) #2

Yes, because capitals are such a blast for fights. And now they could do it from further away, covering even more range. Because that helped promote fights in the past. Oh wait, jump range was nerfed exactly because the capital and then super capital forces where suffocating activity and content. Good job bringing those times back.

And because a lot of people are so happy about capital engagements and drops, like this guy, for instance.

Can we please not make the cancer of EVE even stronger and instead focus on sub-capital content again because thee fights are 100 times more fun than anything capitals will ever offer.


(Old Pervert) #3

Which is exactly why I’m only talking about capitals, not supercaps. Learn to read, and while you’re at it do the game a favour and


(Dyver Phycad) #4

:thinking: May I suggest you learn to read first and maybe take a course in EVE history to learn why the range was reduced a bit.

(Old Pervert) #5

I’m plenty clear on why the range was reduced. I’m saying that increasing capital range and not supercapital range would mean more capital escalations. For someone who consistantly wants CCP to #deletesuperstitansrorqs from the game, you have an odd way of supporting a proposal that would let players delete them for you.

As I clearly said, we’re at a point where proliferation alone has expanded capital umbrellas. You’re already getting dropped on. I know full well you hate capitals, but at the end of the day, the single best way to kill capitals is with capitals. Counter-dropping 50 dreads on a hot drop is almost assured to be a smart move.

(Keno Skir) #6

Nope. History has shown this not to be the case. Jump range dictates the size of “the umbrella” which is death to actual fun fights.

Not exactly like that no, but a big step back toward that.

That makes no sense. You said MORE in the first sentence. Obviously they already drop on people. More is the important word there.

So why double the size of something that already works to discourage fights?

Capitals are not only the most boring ships in the game, they actively make the game more boring merely by their existence. Basically I strongly disagree with your sentiment. The intelligible bits anyway.

(Dyver Phycad) #7

Archons were just as much part of the problem back then.

Funny thing here: That’s not this any of this works. The past years have shown that impressively.

The single best way to destroy capitals is more people in EVE. That has worked out marvelously so far with the focus on capitals and super capitals, and making capitals even more suffocatingly annoying and widespread will surely help to that end. Wait, no, it will not. It will do the opposite. Even more bovine waste capital fleets and fights, even more tedium, annoyance and frustration and even less sub-capital fleets, which are objectively more fun any enjoyable until capitals get involved.


(Old Pervert) #8

Yes, “Jump range”. As an overarching limit. Supercaps having an unchanged jump range means your actual defensive umbrella doesn’t change. You never suicide jump supercaps on offensive counter-drops. Well… not never. But certainly not often enough to matter. You will, however, frequently suicide drop dreads.

Disagree completely. Home field advantage means that while supercaps will generally be left behind by these changes, caps themselves can reach farther. If a group wants to bring capitals to crash the party, that’s good. The defender has their supers to make a mess of things and even up the odds.

That’s the thing… you aren’t doubling the umbrella size. The problem with umbrellas is supercapitals. They’re able to kick the dick of pretty much everything else in. But if you can drop dreads on them from an insanely far way away, are you really going to want to drop them on what could easily be a bait subcap fleet? Sure you’ll kill the counter-drop, but you’ll take losses as well… and those losses are far harder to recoup than a dread bomb is.

Right, I’m not advocating that they get sentry drones back. Different times all around there.

Funny thing here: capital proliferation has never been to the extent that it is now. You can say “historically” as much as you want… at the end of the day we’re in uncharted territory.

Point in case, consider Delve. People running 30-60 rorqual fleets each. You can’t hit them in a meaningful way because they’re covered by supercaps. They hit their panic, and you have to bug out and hope that the hammer doesn’t land on you.

Now imagine you’ve got dreads on standby… well within range of a counter-drop. Are those rorqual fleets going to want to undock, and will those supercap fleets really want to respond when they know that there could be a few hundred dreads ready to hit them?

(Dyver Phycad) #9

Of course they will because not only are the invulnerable for 7 minutes, they also still have the supers and titans to melt those dreads away if the defense fleet is paying attention. If not, dread bombs already exist, work and already have almost all of Delve covered in terms of range from NPC Delve. You are not improving anything there.
And in other areas it will just stifle content even more from those people who do not want to use capitals and instead roam around in a Tengu or a BS or whatnot else not capital.

(Old Pervert) #10

Sigh. No. You attack the rorquals with whatever you were going to, be it subcaps or otherwise. You counter-drop the dreads when they drop the response fleet. If the super fleet doesn’t come, neither do the dreads. But at that point, it’s a tough call… lose some supers, or lose some rorqs. Which ever they chose, they lose. All because you are able to hit their strategic assets with disposable (and quite insurable) capitals.

In areas where people want to roam in subcaps, they’re already covered by capital umbrellas. I’m sure there’s a few systems but at the end of the day, virtually all of low and null (sov/npc) are in jump range of someone’s cache.

The existing range requires that you be neighbours to really drop on things. Travel across the universe is absolute cancer. Nobody wants to do it. But knowing that we can move a sizable dread cache into striking range without wanting to slit our wrists means we can certainly make use of them more often. Which again boils down to “more fights” and “more capital escalations”.

(Dyver Phycad) #11

No, it boils down to less fights because people know that and are less inclined to take a fight with you since they know you will drop them and counter drop them. They knew it in the past and it, it turned into a major content dampener, and it was the basic argument why there range was nerfed in the first place and your spinning does not change any of this. Buffs to capitals are the very last thing that EVE needs unless you want to ruin it more than it already is ruined by this utterly bovine waste focus on capitals of the last 2 or so years.

Something needs to be done to curb the usefulness of capitals and super capitals. Doing something that makes them even more the new battleships of EVE is not what we need.

(Old Pervert) #12

And again… if I force you to fight by tackling rorquals, you’ve got no choice. There’s a fight. You choice is to support that fight with a drop (and get counter-dropped) or not support that fight and ensure you’ve lsot your rorqs. Or of course there’s content denial by not undocking the rorqs… which again is a win.

And as I’ve said, now is nothing like then. To draw historical comparisons is pointless. Ships are all different from then, compositions are all different from then, and the sheer volume of capitals was different from then.

Keep holding your breath. Most players are either in or supported by capitals. They don’t want to lose that. You might not like it, but you’re a minority.

What we CAN do, is give them more chances to die in a fire. The #1 thing I hear from the people I play with is “we want to drop our caps more”. We know that means sometimes they die. That’s Eve.

(Dyver Phycad) #13

That is just sideline changes. The mindset of the people is still the same and that’s what counts. The exact same mindset is being and will be used again when it comes to engagements: are they just going to blob the hell out of us or not? Since we know they do, what’s the point of fighting? That was the mindset back then, and it is the mindset now.

I doubt I am in the minority. I hear complaints about capitals every day from a variety of people. Plus, the current system with the limited range gives more people the safer scenarios to use their capitals and actually have the potential to achieve something instead of just being fodder for the bigger blob. You want to remove that potential and make it harder for those capital users to fight a meaningful fight. Range is not the issue why people do not use capitals more often (which is another insinuation that I doubt because various groups throw them around like candy and not just in null sec tidi blob fests), the general risk of using them without achieving anything is likely a far grater contributor to this.

Longer capital jump range does not help there, it makes it even worse.

(Old Pervert) #14

Really? You mentioned ■■■■■■■ slowcats. Those aren’t even in existance anymore. That’s not a sideline change. Fundamental aspects of every single avenue of capital warfare have changed even since fatigay was added. Say nothing of jump range changes.

Their mindset is irrelevant. If you wanna do something that doesn’t work, go right ahead. You’ll get dunked. There’s a very clear reason we have “the current meta”. It works best, and Eve players know it. To fall back on previous mentalities that were built around metas/doctrines that don’t even exist anymore is foolish at best.

The answer to which will determine the scope of response. Consider Delve again. Will they immediately respond with a super fleet, or will tehy respond with subcaps first? I’d strongly consider the subcaps, because if that counter-drop is there, it’s definitely not something you want to drop on your super fleet.

You hate the fact that anything that moves gets cap-blobbed. Cool. Is it going to get cap-blobbed when you know that your cap blob can be cap blobbed too? No. You aren’t.

It was a big deal those days because capitals were not common. Big groups could run rampant and ■■■■ all over everything because nobody could stop them. That is not the case today. MANY groups have caps. It’s nothing to whelp 50, 100, or even 500 dreads if the target is right. That was never the case in those days, which simply reinforces that history is no indication of the future.

Argumentem Ad Populum. You’re hearing a vocal minority and assuming that because you hear it from a “variety of people” it holds water. I’m sure many people will say “capital warfare isn’t quite balanced”, but honestly, if it was really as big as you make it out to be, it would have been nerfed 5 times over by now.

My argument is pretty straightforward. Null blocs control a vast majority of the pilots who are actually in cap-targetable space. Their cap fleets are their lifeblood. Nobody wants to see their own power reduced.

Another example, CCP announced changes to faxes. They were going to nerf them. The outcry was excessively strong, enough for them to postpone their changes and consult the playerbase more. Will a nerf come? Probably - most of us agree that something is needed… but the scope was excessive. That group won the stay, which clearly indicates that CCP wants to ensure capitals remain prevalent (otherwise they would have proceeded and caps en mass would have become substantially less powerful).

(Dyver Phycad) #15

Yes, yes, they will. Maybe not the first time but the second time they will. How I know that? Because I see them drop ridiculous numbers of capitals and supers on even the smallest targets. And the past dreadbombs just prove that further.

Then you are naive. They are so common and content suffocating that CCP had to do something about their usability. And according to released metrics from the time after these changes, capital content has flourished more than before. Furthermore, the massive growth of just a very few groups shows clearly that the current players use the exact same mindsets and mentalities of the past. They want safeties in numbers and things like you suggest only reinforce this today. It does not matter that you cannot use sentries any more. A blob of fighters works just as fine. Coincidentally, I have been in a fleet in low sec today where a nice capital blob was used to achieve a goal. The opponents? They just sat on their structure and had to let it happen. That is what capitals do. They are in no way whatsoever good for EVE.

Have you been in space lately? I have and what I hear is that most of the sub-cap fleets take the capital umbrella extremely seriously. It goes so far that fights only take place as long as a cyno jammer is active and as soon as that one is dead, the fight stops because the feeding would be pointless. This is the rubbish that you want to reinforce. Capitals kill content, not enable it.

The same happened when they wanted to nerf Rorqs. The outcry was hideous and in the end they got nerfed anyway. The same kind of happened when CCP nerfed Svipuls or Ishtars. And you know what this is? Not support for these ships because they are nice. It’s the response of a drug addict who gets his drugs taken away. OP Isthars made everyone addicted to an easy to use, ultra-versatile ship. The unreasonably overpowered Svipuls made everyone addicted to a sub cap that can blab everything smaller than itself and even bigger targets. And it made whole ship classes worthless. The unreasonably overpowered Rorqs made everyone addicted to the massive mining income very quickly and when that got taken away, everyone was out of their mind. The same happens with FAXes now because they are existential for the new battleships to function.

Your argument is not rock-solid or straightforward. Instead, it bases its validity on the scenario of drug addition and to give those people even more of that drug, while ruining EVE further and further.

What EVE needs are more people like this guy, not more ways to prevent people like this guy from doing what they are doing:

You want to make it easier to prevent what this guy is doing by making it easier to use capitals. You want to expand the I-Win-button further and turn this crapshow of capitals into an even worse scenario than it already is.

(Old Pervert) #16

This is ridiculous. There isn’t a good FC out there that will authorize a super drop when there’s a known dread bomb waiting. To assert that they’d ignore it is utter stupidity. BUT lets assume you’re right, and they do drop their supers as a response fleet.

The dread bomb hits them, and kills off a good chunk of their supers. The dreads get rebuilt faster and at a terrifyingly low cost (insurance). The supers get built slower and have shitty insurance. There’s a very clear loser here, and it’s not the dread bomb.

THAT is what I keep saying. Capitals are common these days. They weren’t like that those days. They may have felt like it, but that was just a few groups who knew they could transit the universe to hit anything.

The idea that a group can oppressively bring their capitals to any engagement and expect to win is foolish. Everyone has caps now. It’s no longer a huge advantage that one side can use against the other. THAT was the problem, which was ironically solved by proliferation.

I see… and so if that other group had brought an oppressive number of subcaps, the defenders would have happily whelped their fleet? No, of course not. Eve is and always has been about the strong killing the weak. the defenders were weak, and as such, they lost that fight. They smartly chose not to waste their ships, but at the end of the day, they were the weaker party. No tears shed over their loss.

You can say that they stifle content, I can say they don’t. The cap pilots certainly saw content.

Because you can’t presently counter-drop them. Jesus. We both know full well that super umbrellas are the ultimate ■■■■ you fleet. But nobody’s going to willy-nilly drop their supers when they’re going to end up losing a bunch to a near-free dread bomb. Anyone that will do that will run out of supers far too quickly to remain relevant.

Yes, and as I said I expect FAX will get nerfed. That much is quite apparent. What I’m citing is the significance of the outcry. It clearly outweighed the people supporting the change. That suggests that more people want FAX to be strong, than there are people who want FAX to be weak.

(Dyver Phycad) #17

You have not been part of such a thing, have you? Ever heard of the concept of a cyno 100 km away from the Dread Blob? Or the concept of FAX repairing the supers? No? Well, welcome to Delve. The dreads will lose a lot more than the defenders.

They were so common and content suffocating back in the days that CCP had to something about their usability.

Knowing the particular opponent: Yes, they would, because they have sub caps that would have countered the subcaps that we used. Has happened before multiple times.

Funny that you mention this because your suggestion will make this again the smart choice more often than this is already the case. Longer cap jump ranges will not improve anything.

Jesus, no, not because you cannot counterdrop them. It’s because they overpower anything. And CONDI drops their capitals willy-nilly on anything in range, and so does TEST. And why? Because they can, because they have the numbers to support them, because they have the industry to support their production. The entire capital focus is making EVE worse and worse by the day.

Since when is the opinion of drug addicts a valid opinion or valid argument in favor of a suggestion? Besides, CCP is not helping a lot with the FAX changes. They are not the issue. The issue are the capitals altogether. Great, now FAX repair a little bit less. That does not matter in big fights because their are multitudes of redundant FAX available and in the worst case it just requires an additional alt. And in small scale it will not change things for the better either because their reps are still massive. Hence, CCP is changing the wrong thing and they are not nerfing anything enough nearly enough to improve the situation.

(Old Pervert) #18

Ever hear of a counter-cyno 40 off the cap blob? Or the concept of 100 dreads literally volleying supers off before they can even catch reps? No? Welcome to Eve. The dreads will lose far more in number, but far less in value.

They only felt common because they were able to travel so far. These days they actually ARE common.

Then clearly they should get good. There are a multitude of hard counters for carriers. Ferox fleets, griffins, scorpions, rokhs. Capitals are not oppresive if you have the numbers to fight them. These people either suck balls at adapting, or lacked a suitable counter. Either way, they deserved their loss.

The smart choice will of course be to not drop supers on things. If people want to drop caps on each other, that’s great. That’s exactly what I said in my OP: More fights.

Do you know what happens to a super when it gets volleyed? It dies. It doesn’t magically say “nah I’m a super, I don’t want to die”. Dreads in suitable numbers volley supers. It’s very simple. CONDI and TEST, and every other superpower out there drop their supers because they know there’s nothing in range to threaten them. Change that though by making things be in range to threaten them, and they’ll smarten up REAL fast.

Don’t forget that the people listening to this particular outcry are the drug dealers. CCP is not isolated from its playerbase. It needs them for money. If it pisses them off by making changes they aren’t willing to accept, they lose subscriptions.

At the end of the day, people talk with their wallets. And at the end of the day, after reviewing the outcry, it was clear where the money was. If there was an actual problem with capitals, there would be a corresponding drop in revenue. At best you can call it a nuisance, insufficient to make you stop playing the game.

(Dyver Phycad) #19

As I have shown you before, the range is no issue in Delve at all and CONDI has been on the receiving end of dread bombs and is still getting dreads dropped on their things every now and then. Range is not the issue at all.

And that’s the issue. You need numbers. The server does not support numbers, though, which leads to the utterly unpleasant experience that capitals are and ever will be. Yes, sub-capitals also come in numbers, but these numbers can be reduced effectively and quickly and they can be used in different spots in the system (as the recent fight in YKSC has shown as an example). Sub caps are the better choice to have fun. Period.


(Fluffy Moe) #20

Maybe they should make module for it, lets a cap double its jump range but uses like 4x the fuel to do so, the module itself takes up a slot and is polarized, so the resistances all drop to zero, and has a cooldown on being changed / unequipped after jump so you can’t just swap it out before engagement.

Something like that might be ok.