Where does the CSM draw the line between acceptable gameplay and harassment?

Basically as the question suggests, where does the line get drawn

The context, bumping mechanics ofcourse, however the actually problem is targeted bumping.

Now I have no problem with bumping of the mechanic of it, I approve of it and have no arguments against it, its a valid tactic, however constantly targeting a single player with constantly bumping and following the target around for hours, basically making the game unplayable. This has happened to me several times now, I get bumped, cool, move system, they follow, bumped again, cool…move again…followed and bumped again…the latest event happened for 4 hours.

I’ve put several petitions to CCP about it, and they dont seem to want to give me a straight answer about the problem or they simply dont care, To me it seems they have forgotten the first rule in their own TOS, but who knows. So CSM, what you think about this behavior? acceptable gameplay or breach of TOS?

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CCP used to have a policy that if you made an attempt to move away from the problem, not just within the same system, or by a system or a few, but well away; it could be considered harassment if you were followed.

If you only move locally (eg. within the same constellation), then it might be competition trying to move you on, so they have less competition.

But that is a policy from around 2013-2014, so they might have changed their implementation.

Also, the CSM can’t draw a line on this. They aren’t CCP, nor do they control the game masters.

Edit: Here is the original 2013 policy:

https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/topic/199310/

However, as per the edit in the opening post in 2016:

This forum post is now 3 year old and does not represent CCP´s current stance on the issue, as such it can be viewed as outdated

Thanks, yer i was aware of the old ruling, and how it is now outdated, but i’d like to know what their stance is now. Surely following someone around for 4 hours through multiple constellations is not appropriate. CCP won’t tell me so i’d like to know what the CSM thinks.

The best you can ask for is for the CSM to raise it to CCP.

Other then that, the CSM don’t make rulings on what’s ok and quite often what the CSM think is irrelevant to CCP’s thinking.

“The problem is the solution” to quote a permaculturalism
This issue is an opportunity to seek allies ; but I doubt the CSM are the ones you really need.

Harassment is one of those words that are thrown around and have lost some of their true meaning. Especially in an environment like New Eden, where one pilot’s freedom can be an other pilot’s perceived limitation, simple (and legitimate) annoyance can be mistaken for harassment.

For instance, if it would make it impossible for a pilot to play the game at all despite all reasonable efforts to avoid the confrontation, I have no doubts that ccp would step in. But the sandbox is not guarded by mommies who go ballistic when the first tear flows. Seasoned EvE players even take considerable pride in that. My guess is that the CSM, if it represents us, has a similar view.

In your case, the changes made to the bumping mechanic in 2019 ensure that you will be able to go into warp after 3 minutes of “attempting to align”, so you can continue your journey regardless. Annoying, perhaps, lengthy, certainly. Harassment, no, since you are able to travel. Why are you being bumped ? That’s the interesting part, but one we know nothing about. Perhaps there was a valid reason to chase you. Maybe it was a consequence of something else. So, without info on the motivation of the other party it becomes a one-sided claim that cannot be investigated. What remains is the legitimacy of the bumping mechanic, and the rest is just emerging gameplay.

One common sense approach to “drawing a line” is to first determine if the bumper is getting (or is chasing) a benefit. If they are looking to extort a mining permit from you - and you are not willing to pay - that would likely be regarded by the majority(?) as being vanilla sandbox ie well within the line

As others stated, you do not provide any context as to why you were bumped. That would make a difference to most opinions. Assuming you do actually know the reason??

There is pretty much nothing we can do about this, unfortunately. Team Security and the GM teams have almost no interaction with the CSM except in rare circumstances (I think we have had two meetings in the last three years, one I was present for and one when I wasn’t on the CSM) and they never speak about specific cases with us.

I think it’s in your best interests to continue reporting this as it happens - a sufficient number of complaints and examples of the stalking is the best way to convince them this isn’t just a one off thing, and the guy doing it is deliberately targeting you.

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True, CCP basically told me this and is a valid point. Tell me an option then without me needing making more accounts to protect myself which would be pointless anyway or one I can wardec a group I cant wardec?..but even if I could wardec them, then I’d need 15000+ friends. I dont see any option.

True what you say about the warp in 3 minutes mechanic, however everyone knows you need to have proximity to a target or area of interest to interact with it…missoin running, mining, exploration. PI and industry not really, but you still move to move stuff around for that. How can I do any activity in the game when someone is constantly bumping, even if I have moved system several times?

As to the reason, no idea. I didnt say nothing in local, they never asked for a so called mining permit. Protecting their so called ‘space’… sure, they must ‘own’ most of hisec then. Are they doing it for ‘shits and giggles’…cool but for 4 hours…give me a break. I have limited playtime as it is now.

No reason (that I know of)…no isk extortion, they dont even try to gank me. Follow me around and bump me. I got no idea what to do.

Yep, I’ll continue to report this behavior. First time I reported it I went through 3 GMs, this time my first response back was ‘we got all info, see what we can do’. Ticket closed. 5 days later same guy targeting me again…so no idea.

If it is that large a group you need to talk to the alliance diplomat.
Their methods of policing their members are more effective than anything you could do.

Stop being a carebear and just kill the bumpers then. Either go to low/null or declare war.

I’m assuming you’re doing something like mining. There’s some things you can do to counter bumping in that context that aren’t widely known.

  • If you have multiple ships, have them duel and web each other to slow them down and mitigate the bumping force.

  • You can also increase your ship’s mass to reduce the impulse of the bump. Use the same techniques as wormhole rolling: fit a Higgs Anchor rig (you can use plates too but they don’t really fit on mining ships), and have a propulsion module (enduring afterburner) active to massively increase your ship’s mass.

Like most griefing behaviour, they’ll probably get bored if you just adjust to mitigate the effect and ignore them.

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They have no diplomat, and encourage their members to do whatever they want.

Sounds boring and lonely. Roll up an alt and infiltrate.
There is always a way.

SO your advice is…

  1. So I need to spend 15 mil for a gank cat to kill a 14 mil stabber?..then they just come back, and they get kill rights…

  2. Go to low or null…to get hotdropped instead of bumped…mmm. Even if I did this, I dont have the personal time to setup in low or null.

  3. Declare war on a corp I cant wardec cause they are not wardecable…like I mentioned.

How about instead of posting troll replies to this thread, actually say something constructive, if not, dont bother at all :+1:

I’ve tried similar tactics like this before when I ran multiple accounts, sure it helps alittle but not that much. BTW I shouldn’t be forced to run multiple accounts to play a game, if you do, maybe CCP should put that as a disclaimer when you sign up.

This is the main problem… ‘probably’ get bored, the guy did this for 4 hours. If they only did it in a one, maybe 2 systems in a close area and maybe for a hour or 2, I wouldn’t have a problem. But when they do it for 4 hours, following you around in multiple constellations its gets ridiculous

Thought about that, but couldn’t be bothered starting up another character, and even if I did, I don’t think I’d be able to achieve much.