This is why min/max players seem mentally ill to me.
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sounds interesting as a fleet doctrine. however the draw back here for that potential DPS is 0% resistance across the board. you are basically jelly with an attitude…
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What was CCP’s reasoning for that change? All it did was hurt smart players like yourself.
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under scram ?
Cap resistance is the same across the sizes.
The only benefit of using a superior size is more cap.
The issue here is the same as for extender : for balance, the cap gained from a large cap battery on a BS is just a bit more than a cap recharger would give, CAP regen wise. For some battleships it’s even less. The benefit of a large cap is very small, so making them eat more fitting would make them useless on battleships : why fit 2 large cap battery when one cap recharger and one thukker small cap battery give more than half the cap recharge for an almost null fitting cost ? It’s already the case on amarr BS.
cut the AB when you turn.
This is not minmaxing. This s trying unusual fits, and using ones brain.
This is making unorthodox gameplay.
So what is not “mentally ill” to you ? Watching TV all day long and not giving a second thought ?
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I think you will find that he was making a joke there…
I was a bit confused by that too in terms of him replying to that post, it was nothing to do with min-max as far as I could work out. But Herzog’s sentiments about min/max being mentally ill applies when the said min/max playing goes off on a long rant about you doing it wrong when you don’t min/max. Of course we know that many min/max PvE types are doing that so as to spend as little time as possible doing what they see as boring PvE so they can do what they want to do, however people find different things interesting and this one shoe fits all type of attitude is rather worrying. Because I am not them and they are not me.
Did that help in getting an answer to this amusing question:
Not sure whether you define that as mentally ill or you were just trying badly to throw an insult at Herzog, if comedy was your attempt then don’t give up your day job.
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Dafuk ?
Again, this is NOT minmaxing. It’s just a way to make a unusual fit viable.
Minmaxing is NOT a one shoe fit all attitude. It’s the opposite of that. It’s one fit to be viable in ONE situation, and be sure you are never caught in another situation.
What happens to a hull tanked blaster dominix once he finds opponent who fight in point range ? He is defanged and dies an agonizing death.
But what happens to a dominix that has tracking computer, a grappler, a mjd, a web, a point, one armor rep and two ancils ?
He will get crushed by the previous fit.
I don’t define anything as mentally ill, he does
I updated my post to make it more clear that I was wondering why Herzog was replying to that post with the min/max quote.
My quote of a one shoe fits was in terms of a min/max player telling other who do not min/max that they are doing it wrong and was the continuation of perhaps an off topic discussion and has noting to do at all with the fitting or not of ships for specific jobs and the fitting or not of oversized modules.
As for this I quite agree.
But to make it totally clear my comment of a one shoe fit s all attitude was applied to people who say that uinless you min/max you are playing eve wrong. Did you get that, or do you feel the need to start replying on something I never said.
What you said is this, looks like it to me.
Anyone who does that is quite possibly suffering from depression. But anyway, this is getting silly. So I repeat, I don’t understand why Herzog replied like that to that players quite sensible post on fitting.
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I think you are mistaking “minmax” with “optimize”.
This paragraph is too generic in its terms, so there is no general answer. Define minmax more correctly, if possible with examples, and I can give you a precise answer.
If your question is about optimization, it’s actually very simple.
You are paying isks with your life.
The time you take to play the game is in limited quantity, and that is your most valuable resource as a human.
So if people want ISK, they wantt he best ratio of isk/h they can have.
It’s a bit more complex. In reality, people try several activities, learning about them and the game each time. The thing is, if the activity seems to give less than the previous one, they will give up.
If you assume that each activity can have the same isk value over time, that means that increasing your efficiency each time you change activity is the only to not feel like it is a waste of time.
Also, the difference in isk you can make with non-optimal and optimal fit is actually HUGE. I am talking about a ratio of 10 times better if you know what you are doing, rather than if you don’t want to think of it but still have the notions to not lose money.
In reality, optimization is just the insurance that you are not losing money.
If you are choosing an activity instead of another, and you are not optimizing that new activity, then you are possibly losing money.
What I said is a question that was mirroring his post which was doing a strawman fallacy, by using the correct terms instead of his strawman, to show that his post was absurd (contraposition).
If he affirms that people who use their brain in the game are the one mentally ill, then people not mentally ill are those who do not use their brain, and gave an example of such people who are obviously mentally ill to logically demonstrate the absurd of hi argument.
It’s not a personal attack, it’s a demonstration by absurd that involves a contraposition.
This corollary demonstrates that for his opinion to make any sense, “optimize” and “minmaxing” must be the same thing, which also does not hold in a PvP game - because minmaxing holds the notion of exaggeration that is not needed, while PvP holds the notion of optimization and adaptation at any cost.
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I don’t think I am, though of course optimize earnings for time spent is one way of saying it. It is just min amount of time and max return.
This then gets away from the fun equation of playing a game, if you want ISK you want it for what reason, to me it is a means to an end and not a measure of success, but for others that is not the case. Of course I want ISK, but I want to have fun while generating it and that is why I find the Trig Invasion a complete hoot for example.
I pretty much agree with this, though at the end you get back to the ISK in the wallet side of it being the driver in terms of your play.
I know what you were doing, I was attempting to explain what I thought was his view on min/max having had this discussion in chat with him in the past.
Fair point and at a base level I totally agree, but what one defines as PvP the higher up you go then gets into the realms of deeper pockets and higher morale which involves fun and all that. Anyway, sorry I am derailing this thread a bit, which is not my intent.
By the way you made me chuckle with this post:
I went holy shite your right, 
And now I am looking to fit it as we speak…
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What if optimizing in itself, and seeing that you did it well because your isk/h is increasing, is also a measure of success ?
What if people like to have complex puzzle for which the rules are not set and you need to find them out in order to have fun ?
What if people like to design tools that help you find the rules and optimize your gameplay according to the rules you found in the game ? That is me BTW.
Because that’s the only objective measure you can have.
Fun is more depending on your own mood than on the gameplay. On the people you are playing with. On the quality of sex/food you had in the morning. On the weather and the presence of flies all around your computer.
Fun does not exist in the game. So there is no gameplay that involves fun. There is no comparison of fun. There is no evolution, optimization, discussion, evaluation, of fun.
Fun is a value that is intrinsic to the player, not to the game. Doing one thing might be fun, but doing it 1000 times may be a bit less fun, even if -especially if - it’s exactly the same thing.
so when discussing with other players, there is no point arguing over a meaningless value such as “fun”.
I gave a fit here…
You need to click on “not even joking” to show the part of text that is inside.
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You did indeed, 
Quite true, but it is a personal measure of success.
Also quite true.
I can see that you are good at this.
Still, what I find is the issue is with people telling others that they are doing it wrong when the other player is operating from a different measure of success. (that was a real mess, I thought I had adjusted that sentence, sorted it now.)
Take freighter gankers, they optimized the hell out of that, and the challenge and success was in doing that, I understand that. The issue is that once you get about a certain point it is repetitive boring game play against easy targets aided by a naff mechanic, I understand the personal satisfaction that they had, but that so many burn out from it is evidence of just how lame it is. CCP’s issue is with the victims of this who blame CCP, a point which I keep trying to make clear. It was most amusing to me that the most successful player is Kusion who was not a PvP player, but an indy player, while the rest of them end up struggling to come to terms with the real lack of anything behind it. The ISK is there of course…
I guess so, I look at the ISK value of my assets as a measure of success in this game because there are so many people wanting to erode that value.
Anyway interesting exchange as always, you are may I say it one very intelligent chap.
You added this afterwards: My habit too:
I find fun, mainly because once I get bored with it I do something else, it ends up being a cycle of different things which is why this game is pretty rich. I find it more fun if I do it and chill out with it, and as soon as I get irritated with anything I say, nope time to stop. Though sometimes being in a frenzied situation such as with the Trigs is one hell of a buzz. That is why objectives are so important in this game.
What “other measure” ? I don’t see any.
MY measure of success is not isk. I use isk to have all the bpos in the game, so I never have any isk ready, even though my assets evaluation should be in the T isk and I produce well over 1B per day and farm over 150M/h raw isk. I just don’t care, it’s fun but that’s not what I consider fulfilling.
I made a tool that shows exactly how many hour I farmed over the last month, how many isks I made, and cumulated isk/h I actually did (from bounties). And It is very close to what I actually have in my simulator tools, for the cases I chose, and THIS (prediction that actually matches the reality over 25h) is what I consider fulfilling.
Can we discuss this ? No we can’t. That’s my idea of fun.
It’s the same for my industrial tool. I know I made mistakes in my simulators. I made a lot of iterations to fix some, and some other mistakes I don’t know them.
I just made a simple modification to my blueprint analyzer, where it considers the evaluation of production for a blueprint, using the best values I actually have for ME/TE, with an ordering on the bpos by ME first, and then using a minimum value for each. Before, that was not taking into account the bpos that were being used so this lead to activity chain not being doable (eg build A, then B that requires A but the bpo for B is actually being researched so you can’t use it)
I am very pleased to see the proposed activities in my tool not containing such an impossible task anymore, and I feel fulfilled by this.
Is that something we can discuss on the forum ? No we can’t. That’s my idea of fun.
We can only talk about values that are objective. isk/h is one, when at least people use the minimum rigor to compute it.
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This thread is making me consider existentialism
Later on I need to make rigorous research on the generation of escalation. It will cost me like 30hours of working to have a start of a data.
I think it is utterly boring. I tried to start it but then realized my approach Was not rigorous enough and my data were tainted by my mistakes, making me waste some 5h of farming (farming data, not isk).
I thing this is the most boring game play, that does not even produce isk, and that most people just don’t have the intellectual capacity to understand the challenges.
That is MY notion of fun. (though finding a flaw meaning a waste of hours is not very encouraging, to say the least)
Just so you know, the data is following :
farm every combat anomaly in a system, write the name, the date of completion including time, if presence of a commander write the loot of the commander, if escalation write the name, and the system, of the escalation.
My mistake was to write the loot and the escalations in two separate files, so I could not tell the relation between commander and escalation.
Also I did not write when another player was present in the anomaly, which potentially could create wrong data.
If people tell you this is not fun, they are lying.
There is at least one person who finds fun in it.
And I actually met other persons who enjoy this too and gave me data (but without a very rigorous protocole I could not use that data)
So I find this fun, but I can’t discuss it on the forum because this is just a subjective value of the activity.
What we can do however is talk about the flaws of such a protocol, and the rigor cost of relaxing the protocol with objective metrics, in terms of impact in the data acquisition (in bits of information).
People will start complaining that this discussion is not about the fun of exploring data statistics, and they should not talk about bits/h because that ruins the fun. And this is you, @Dracvlad .
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Actually no, because for a long period of time I found exploring data the way you are doing a lot of fun, so I understand your fun in doing this. The issue is of course that you have to generate a sample that is representative. Anyway…
It was an image, to explain you why people use isk/h (in this case bit/h) instead of fun.
I did not actually find a forum post that talks about bit/h, I am amazed you actually did.
I don’t know. I don’t even recall much fanfare about it. I didn’t get a chance to rant and rave in the forums, and get told HTFU or where Hello Kitty Online was.
The word “Fozzie” comes to mind. Anybody who would put a 40 second reload on a rapid launcher would to that sort of thing to exploration. 
If I had a television I could answer that.
Republic fleet is way cheaper and gives more cap. Comparable fitting requirements to thukker one.