Why is the Repair Systems skill a two-edged sword?

[Murasame_Masamune]

@Cypherous

Nope, its the actual issue here, learn to micromanage your ship instead of expecting to be able to basically ignore your modules

You not liking the answer doesn’t make it disingenuous bud

Yes, you’re either being disingenuous or - how do I word this nicely? - you lack the capacity to understand the question. If the answer does not fit the question, outright ignoring the question, scenario or the topic, it is reasonable, assuming you are of sound mind, for me to assume you are being intentionally daft. It’s not a matter of not liking the answer, but the answer having nothing to do with the topic and/or point it’s supposed to address.

@Cypherous

Then thats a tank and fit issue, if you’re not able to tank the incoming damage then YOU did something wrong, you either don’t have the required skills to mitigate the damage or you didn’t fit the right modules or you didn’t bring the right ship, these are all things you control

Fitting or ship is irrelevant to the point I’m making. “Get a bigger stuff” is not some mind blowing sage advice. The point is this represents a scenario in which having Repair System at a lower level is preferrable than having it at a higher level. Avoiding the situation does not negate the fundamental fact that you can be in said situation. As I stated previously, even if cap stable with reps that outpace incoming DPS, the fundamental drawback still exists. The very possibility of a lower skill level being better in a situation exists. Just like the drawback still exists if you equip a DPS rig, but have the necessary power grid to handle it.

@Cypherous

in your scenario the amount of cap you have is irrelevant because even with infinite cap you still die because your reps can’t repair enough, so the amount of cap they use makes literally zero difference

And again, we have another reply that shows you are intentionally playing daft or not playing at all and genuinely lacking the capability to comprehend written English. Because I completed the mission. I did not die. It clearly did make a difference. So the strawmanned concept of this thread being about a “tank and fit issue” falls apart. Did you even read what I posted? Let’s look at it again for the Nth time. I’ll trim some of it out as not to overwhelm you as perhaps you’re not being disingenuous, and it’s genuinely taxing for you to keep up with.

@Murasame_Masamune

Because I had lvl 1 and 59s more capacitor (on paper or not, that translates into practical performance), I was able to run the repper long enough to kill enough foes to lower the incoming DPS to a point where HP compensated tit for tat. And then to a point where HP started to recover. At that point I started to turn off the repper and let the cap replenish.

I did tank the incoming damage. That’s the whole point. If I had lvl 5 I would not have been able to because the module would have shut down due to cap failure. So following your strawman framing, the “tank and fit issue” you refer to would be me having lvl 5 skills. You shot yourself in the foot. Good job. You just admitted that there are times where having Repair Systems at a lower skill level is preferable to having it at a higher level. As at the higher level I would have reached failure and required a different fit. That would fall in line with your reply.

In the context of the example given, the very notion of saying a person doesn’t have the “right ship” is in and of itself admitting that the higher skill level has a drawback that and, in that particular scenario, warrants a complete overhaul of the fitting and/or ship (which I would agree with if the topic was fittings). Thanks for validating my point even if you didn’t intend to.

@Cypherous

@Murasame_Masamune

Answer this question if you’re serious or let me know if you have a reading disorder and can’t comprehend the paragraph.

Resorting to ad-hominem doesn’t help your argument

Learn what an ad hominem is. I never personally attacked you. Me asking you to let me know if you have a reading disorder is perfectly valid considering your seeming lack of understanding of the written language. As I’ve elaborated in this very comment by contrasting my quotes to your replies, your response shows either a lack of reading comprehension or willful ignorance. Now I gave you the benefit of the doubt in regard to that lack of comprehension being unintentional and you having a reading disorder. So, can I take it that by denying you have any reading disorder, you did in fact intentionally ignore the segment I quoted above, meaning you are being purposely obtuse? Because it’s one or the other.

[Mephiztopheleze]

@Murasame_Masamune

I did tank the incoming damage. That’s the whole point. If I had lvl 5 I would not have been able to because the module would have shut down due to cap failure

Only if you leave it running. You would still tank the site at lvl V.

Shutting the module down when overrepping, or once incoming dps has been reduced to a more manageable level renders your entire argument moot. This is an empirical, objective fact.

That you don’t want to manage your modules is a you problem, not a ccp developer problem.

The skill doesn’t need changing. Your ability to fit and fly a ship needs somewhat drastic improvement.

If you want to just activate your repper and forget about it, then choose and fit your ship to be able to do that.

[Mephiztopheleze]

@Murasame_Masamune

I really want to know, what mission/ site is this all about and what exact ship and fit are you using?

[Syzygium]

Summary of this topic:

is explaining to

that that she is seriously considering to leave ‘Driving Curves’ at Level I because Level V would take away stability from her style of driving.

Everyone else:

[Cypherous]

@Murasame_Masamune

Yes, you’re either being disingenuous or - how do I word this nicely? - you lack the capacity to understand the question.

If you’re referring to the claim that training the skill is a double edged sword, its far more likely that you don’t understand the mechanics or how to micromanage your ship

@Murasame_Masamune

but the answer having nothing to do with the topic and/or point it’s supposed to address.

Except it does, you need to learn how to manage your resources correctly, thats a skill issue

CCP can’t fix skill issues

@Murasame_Masamune

Fitting or ship is irrelevant to the point I’m making.

Sure it is, you just know that it defeats your troll complaint so you’re choosing to ignore it

@Murasame_Masamune

The point is this represents a scenario in which having Repair System at a lower level is preferrable than having it at a higher level.

There is no scenario that exists where that would be the case sadly, well except for you it seems, the first person in 20 years, you might want to take note of that part

@Murasame_Masamune

And again, we have another reply that shows you are intentionally playing daft or not playing at all and genuinely lacking the capability to comprehend written English.

Ad-hominem \o/

You don’t like the fact that your argument has been soundly thrashed so you resort to personal attacks, well done

@Murasame_Masamune

That’s the whole point. If I had lvl 5 I would not have been able to because the module would have shut down due to cap failure.

Only if you are entirely unable to micromanage your ship, i’m going to ask a super basic question because there is a slim chance that you actually don’t know this but

You do know you can stop a module from cycling when you don’t need it running right? and it only costs cap while its running, can you see where i’m going with this?

@Murasame_Masamune

So following your strawman framing, the “tank and fit issue” you refer to would be me having lvl 5 skills. You shot yourself in the foot. Good job.

No, because if you’re running out of cap thats a skill issue, the issue is you lack the skill to turn off things you don’t need running it would seem

@Murasame_Masamune

You just admitted that there are times where having Repair Systems at a lower skill level is preferable to having it at a higher level.

Where? i’ve said there has never been a scenario where anyone has ever wanted it at a lower skill until you came along

@Murasame_Masamune

In the context of the example given, the very notion of saying a person doesn’t have the “right ship” is in and of itself admitting that the higher skill level has a drawback that and, in that particular scenario, warrants a complete overhaul of the fitting and/or ship (which I would agree with if the topic was fittings). Thanks for validating my point even if you didn’t intend to.

No it doesn’t validate your point in the slightest, despite your mental gymnastics there, nice attempt though

@Murasame_Masamune

Learn what an ad hominem is. I never personally attacked you.

You literally did above, i know what it means, you might need the refresher

@Murasame_Masamune

So, can I take it that by denying you have any reading disorder, you did in fact intentionally ignore the segment I quoted above, meaning you are being purposely obtuse? Because it’s one or the other.

No, you’re skipping the 3rd option, that you’re wrong

[Murasame_Masamune]

@Mephiztopheleze

@Murasame_Masamune

I did tank the incoming damage. That’s the whole point. If I had lvl 5 I would not have been able to because the module would have shut down due to cap failure

Only if you leave it running.

And if I don’t leave it running? What happens then? Do the enemies stop shooting and depleting my armor to give my cap a breather?

@Mephiztopheleze

If you want to just activate your repper and forget about it, then choose and fit your ship to be able to do that.

You mean like the ship I was using when I was in that very scenario with it running nonstop and successfully completed the mission? I need to choose and fit and ship capable of doing what I did? I mean, come on. You’re obviously trolling. I refuse to believe you are as dense as you are pretending to be. I’m sure as heck not going to explain the plot to you again for a third or fourth time.

[Murasame_Masamune]

@Cypherous

@Murasame_Masamune

but the answer having nothing to do with the topic and/or point it’s supposed to address.

Except it does, you need to learn how to manage your resources correctly, thats a skill issue

CCP can’t fix skill issues

You don’t get to tell me what my topic is about. I set the topic. You reply to my position. You don’t make up your own strawman position about ship fittings and then tell me you addressed my point, which has nothing to do with ship fitting, but rather the effect of a skill on the state of a module. That being increased DPS (upside), but at the same time causing more GJ/s to be expended (downside). Changing a fitting doesn’t negate the underlining position that I take. That being, there should be no drawback to a skill that requires SP investment. In all scenarios it should be preferable.

We’ve all agreed that something requiring more GJ/s is not preferrable to it requiring less. So we understand that requiring more GJ/s is a drawback. You don’t have to agree with the position that there should never be a situation where a lower skill level is superior to a higher, but no fitting or module management advice is going to affect that take. And you fully understand this because you’re not a moron.

Skimming through you replies I see you’ve consigned yourself to keep arguing against your own strawman. This after you already inadvertently admitted I was right. Sorry, no take backs. Seeing as you clearly understand that you’ve thoroughly lost the debate and have decided to just ignore basic math, ignore my actual statements and instead continue strawmanning about fittings to avoid dealing with what I’ve actually stated, there is no reason for me to humiliate you further. It’s getting rather boring and repetitive anyway. I can just refer you to my previous replies instead of repeat myself.

Seeing as you’re assuring me you have no reading disability, you’ve de facto admitted to being intentionally obtuse (i.e. trolling). Take care, mate. Bye.

[Cypherous]

@Murasame_Masamune

You don’t get to tell me what my topic is about.

When your topic is based on a complete misunderstanding on how to play the game, yes, yes i do

@Murasame_Masamune

I set the topic. You reply to my position.

Yes, and i, and numerous other people have informed you that you are incorrect, you don’t seem to want to accept that

@Murasame_Masamune

You don’t make up your own strawman position about ship fittings and then tell me you addressed my point, which has nothing to do with ship fitting, but rather the effect of a skill on the state of a module.

Yes, a state literally nobody but you is complaining about, because people know how to cycle their modules correctly

@Murasame_Masamune

Changing a fitting doesn’t negate the underlining position that I take. That being, there should be no drawback to a skill that requires SP investment. In all scenarios it should be preferable.

There are no actual downsides though, the only person who thinks there is a downside is you, not sure which part of this is that complicated my dood

@Murasame_Masamune

We’ve all agreed that something requiring more GJ/s is not preferrable to it requiring less. So we understand that requiring more GJ/s is a drawback.

But only if it require more cap was the only thing that changed, but that is not the case, ergo, not a drawback

a feature that renders something less acceptable; a disadvantage or problem.

Yet, YOU are the only person who thinks there is a problem because the skill provides advantages, you’re just using it incorrectly

@Murasame_Masamune

You don’t have to agree with the position that there should never be a situation where a lower skill level is superior to a higher, but no fitting or module management advice is going to affect that take. And you fully understand this because you’re not a moron.

Yes because i would be an idiot to think training this skill higher than level 1 is a bad thing

@Murasame_Masamune

Skimming through you replies I see you’ve consigned yourself to keep arguing against your own strawman.

No, i’ve always said there is not an issue with the skill and that the issue in this case is down to end user error

@Murasame_Masamune

Seeing as you clearly understand that you’ve thoroughly lost the debate and have decided to just ignore basic math, ignore my actual statements and instead continue strawmanning about fittings to avoid dealing with what I’ve actually stated, there is no reason for me to humiliate you further. It’s getting rather boring and repetitive anyway. I can just refer you to my previous replies instead of repeat myself.

That would require you to have actually humiliated me to begin with

@Murasame_Masamune

Seeing as you’re assuring me you have no reading disability, you’ve de facto admitted to being intentionally obtuse (i.e. trolling). Take care, mate. Bye.

Ever heard of the saying, pot calling the kettle black?

You might want to look that one up

[Wes_Wyhunnan]

It feels like the base problem is that no one, not one single other person who plays this game, agrees with your base assumption that there actually IS any scenario, ever, where it is an actual advantage to having a lower lever of that skill. As you are quite literally the only person I have ever even heard of make this argument, it’s safe to assume that CCP will not be making any changes to it, and you are going to have to deal with it as is no matter how many posts you make.

[Qia_Kare]

Let’s do some math.

Medium Armor Repairer I:
Activation Cost: 160 GJ, Repair Amount: 276 HP, Cycle Time: 12s

Skill Level 1 modifies the cycle time down to 11.4s
Skill Level 5 modifies the cycle time down to 9s

11.4s in, Level 1 has spent 160GJ and repaired 276 HP, and so has Level 5.

22.8s in, Level 1 has spent 320GJ and repaired 552 HP, and so has Level 5.

34.2s in, Level 1 has spent 480GJ and repaired 828 HP, and so has Level 5.

45.6s in Level 1 has spent 640GJ and repaired 1104 HP, but Level 5 has spent 800GJ and repaired 1380 HP! For the next 11.4s, Level 5 turns their repper off.

57s in, Level 1 has spent 800GJ and repaired 1380 HP, same as Level 5 who can now turn their repper on again.

Total HP repaired: 1380 for both. Total cost: 800GJ for both. Average rate of cap depletion: ~14.04 GJ/s for both. Level 5 just got their HP faster. If the L5 player wanted to, they could have deactivated their repper earlier to stay ‘in step’ with the lower skilled player. You don’t need lightning reflexes, just somewhere slightly north of 2 clicks per minute to do the job. We can even round very generously up and say 3. Three clicks in a minute is generally considered pretty reasonable by most folks is what I’d expect.

[Mephiztopheleze]

@Murasame_Masamune

You reply to my position.

Your position is that this is such a huge, egregious problem that the devs should recode the skill allowing you to lower it at will.

Our position is that this is utter bollocks and would be a waste of developer time that could be better spent elsewhere.

No-one, literally no-one else, has ever come to your conclusion. In my near 10 years in this game, this has never come up.

We’re also of the opinion that there is already a mechanism in the game that would allow you to lower your skill level. They’re called Skill Extractors.

Your rudness and the deranged rants demanding that we agree with you are highly amusing.

[Iceacid_Frostpacker]

A Trike is more dangerous than A Two Wheeler!

[Xeux]

Why is the third wheel a double-edged sword?

[Murasame_Masamune]

@Wes_Wyhunnan

not one single other person who plays this game, agrees with your base assumption that there actually IS any scenario, ever, where it is an actual advantage to having a lower lever of that skill.

And yet not one single person in this thread (let’s not speak for every person who plays EVE) can actually address the actual scenario I present. Instead, you make up their own scenarios, which have nothing to do with the one I’m presenting. If you or anyone else here was so sure there was no scenario, ever, where there was an advantage to having a lower repair systems skill level then you’d easily debunk MY SCENARIO instead of having to strawman your responses to imply I’m talking about armor repairers in general, in any situation. It seems to me that they do understand there is a scenario where lower is better, but you all just don’t want to admit it. You would not have to strawman otherwise.

@Wes_Wyhunnan

and you are going to have to deal with it as is no matter how many posts you make.

Deal with what exactly? Do you even know?
Deal with my AR being a better choice at lvl 1 skill than lvl 5 for a particular scenario I experienced? Why would I have to “deal with” that? I completed the mission. I’m had no issues with that fit. I just feel that the lower skill being preferrable to the higher skill level should never be the case, no matter how niche, but I’m not exactly being hampered in any way.

@Qia_Kare

Medium Armor Repairer I:
Activation Cost: 160 GJ, Repair Amount: 276 HP, Cycle Time: 12s

Skill Level 1 modifies the cycle time down to 11.4s
Skill Level 5 modifies the cycle time down to 9s

The problem with your scenario is that you haven’t established what the incoming DPS is. So the idea that you can turn it off is completely arbitrary. Why can’t you turn it off at level 1 too? Whatever number you choose, it will have to be a number so that the incoming DPS is less than the level 5 reps, but more than the hypothetical level 1 reps. That scenario has nothing to do with what I’m saying. It’s not relevant to my scenario, which is the only scenario that matters. Your scenario is therefore off topic.

What you’re doing is trying to make this into a general universal discussion about Armor Repairers, when it is solely in regard to a particular situation (the one I presented). You even use a completely different size category. This is why I keep telling you that you’re making a strawman argument and arguing against your own strawman. I never said, “Repair Systems level 1 is better than level 5. Period.” So why are you coming at me as if I did?

GJ/s is greater with higher skill level. This is just the inherent result of the module activating faster. And because of this faster cycle time for greater DPS (upside), as opposed to just having a bonus to HP per cycle, the module expends more capacitor per second (downside), not per cycle. Therefore, there is no math in existence that can make them even in terms of GJ per second. So, your mental gymnastics fall short I’m afraid.

For a Medium Armor Repairer I with Repair Systems level 1, one cycle expends 14 GJ/s. At level 5 it is 17.8 GJ/s. Are you disagreeing with this: Yes or No?

@Mephiztopheleze

Your position is that this is such a huge, egregious problem that the devs should recode the skill allowing you to lower it at will.

Now you’re going to dictate to me my position. Nice strawman.

Not a strawman? Quote me saying any such thing.

This is the part where you tuck tail and avoid my challenge to your willful, conscious, intentional lies. The nice thing about you is all I have to do is ask you to back up what you claim and you instantly crumble. You are child’s play. Begone.

[Mephiztopheleze]

@Murasame_Masamune

Now you’re going to dictate to me my position. Nice strawman.

Not a strawman? Quote me saying any such thing.

its literally the opening sentence of this thread.

@Murasame_Masamune

Shouldn’t there be a way to scale the skill level at any given time. It’s the only skill I’m aware of so far in which higher levels have a drawback. In this case, you consume more capacitor. And since you can’t unlearn skills that effect is permanent. I like to be cap stable or close to it and I find myself not wanting to train the skill beyond level 1. It being able to run longer, in my opinion, trumps it doing a little more repair.

It should be either level scalable or get a capacitor bonus per level as well. When overheating, perhaps the capacitor bonus could be suspended.

so, take your accusations of logical fallacies and munch on them.

[Qia_Kare]

@Murasame_Masamune

For a Medium Armor Repairer I with Repair Systems level 1, one cycle expends 14 GJ/s. At level 5 it is 17.8 GJ/s. Are you disagreeing with this: Yes or No?

This isn’t in contention. What is in contention is that you claim the L5 skilled player can’t manage this difference by turning the repper off for an average of 2.4s per completed cycle.

You ask where the time to turn the repper off comes from, and it is baffling that you don’t see that any time the level 5 player has more HP than the Level 1 could, they could shut off the repper until they were even again.

I’ve said you can call this extra task a drawback if you want, and that’s fine, but it is the only drawback possible. Any situation a L1 person can handle, a L5 person can handle if they manage the repper’s cap use. This is universal and applies to your situation as well as all others. If you want to discuss how it would work in your specific situation, then you need to provide numbers that apply to that situation.

[Syzygium]

@Qia_Kare

This isn’t in contention. What is in contention is that you claim the L5 skilled player can’t manage this difference by turning the repper off for an average of 2.4s per completed cycle.

That isn’t even nessessary. The L5 skilled player can just remove a tankmod/rig and fit a capacitor power relay / cap rig instead, which gives him the same tank as the L1 skilled player and MUCH MUCH more capacitor.

This weird scenario he is talking about is completely arbitrary and unrealistic. Not even talking about the fact that L4 gives access to abyssal rolled reppers and even a cheaply rolled enduring armor repairer with bonus to rep amount or a cheaply rolled compact repper with bonus on cap usage would make his fit so much more powerful. He is completely ignoring all these benefits and stomping his feet on the ground, demanding that everyone else should ignore all the side-benefits of upskilling too and just look at his nonsense-sitation and the gj/s while nothing else must be changed. It’s an hilariously stupid approach on the EVE online skill- and fitting-mechanics where higher skills open up a lot more options that bring the player huge benefits in performance one or the other way.

[Jonah_Gravenstein]

@Murasame_Masamune

And yet not one single person in this thread (let’s not speak for every person who plays EVE) can actually address the actual scenario I present

That’s because your scenario is utter bollocks that’s easily solved by actually paying attention and managing your modules properly.

[Qia_Kare]

I can not change the fit and address his actual position as I understand it. That there exists some fit (or fits) that, when flown by a L1 can clear a mission in one go that a L5 trained pilot would not be able to because of cap issues.

He does not contest that there are higher performance fits that can be created. He states that there should be no instance or fit what-so-ever where someone with the skill at L5 should be at a disadvantage, and if any possible fit does exist that the level 5 is disadvantaged in he’d be correct.

I have to show that for any possible fit, the level 5 can always match or beat the level 1 in that same fit, although the level 5 may have to click on his repper more often than the person with a skill level of 1. That is the only disadvantage that can possibly exist. In the case of the medium repper given above, a person with L5 can turn off the repper for 2.4s per completed cycle and be exactly on par with a L1, not counting the advantage of having the extra cap to spend that comes with pushing your capacitor into the 25%-33% range sooner. It’s not necessary to do this for every cycle, one can let it run 5 or 10 cycles and shut it off for 12 or 24 seconds, or however long it takes to regain an comfortable level of cap.

A player will probably want to manage their cap to keep it around the 25%-33% range anyway so they have the most to spend.

[Wes_Wyhunnan]

@Murasame_Masamune I didn’t even bother looking at your two page reply to my post, but I’m gonna see if I can paraphrase it anyway. “My capacitor blah blah….Everyone else is too dumb to understand blah blah….You idiots are too stupid to read blah blah….”