Certainly not, though it’s not about isolation or overspecialization with the Triglavians - with the Mutaplasmids and adaptive survival equipment they use, the intent of things is obviously to not only be able to adapt, but to thrive in any environment they find themselves in, changing themselves as necessary. The Bioadaption Chambers stations show this very clearly 
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Yet they barely made any impact despite their efforts and the gains they did make were only possible do to traitors not their own abilities. Even now they are an existence that is farmed and extorted for our own gain. It’s not hard to find people who have already killed dozens and even hundreds of their ships with only a fraction of their attention.
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I certainly wouldn’t minimize the importance of 27 entire star systems being dragged out of arrangement on either the Triglavian or EDENCOM side. The Collective scraped together a unified force with which they endeavored to claim space enough to return in an operable capacity to the Ancient Domains, as they call New Eden, with the initial impetus for the move being the appearance of the Drifters - who the Collective first recognized as “Ancient Enemy”, apparently seeing their use of the title the once-leadership of the Second Jove Empire in the past.
Pochven is certainly not locked down or secured in its entirety, despite having been dragged into this new arrangement as the Domain of Pochven - many outside forces continue to pour in, including the Drifters themselves.
I myself desire to observe this from as neutral a place as I can, given my areas of study; the Collective is as biased and near as human in regards to their vision of the world as the rest of the Empires and their people, despite what those who have fully and zealously aligned themselves with their philosophy may say, and have their goals in returning to New Eden, as each Empire has its own ambitions.
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Careful, Uriel-- if you keep meeting the histrionic fictions of these empire loyalists with actual facts, they’re all liable to accuse you of being a filthy Triglavian sympathizer.
They’ve already turned the NeoCom Summit channel into an echo chamber. Pity if it happens here, too.
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Please, Miss Jackal - while I recognize animosities on either end, it’s become a point of great weariness for me that, again, both sides generally seem to have few intentions of anything but the wholesale rejection of those who chose to fight on the other side.
The Triglavian Collective continues its setup in the space they once had to leave;
The Empires’ common defense group continues complete rejection of the Triglavians;
All the while, the Drifters silently progress their plans.
The Triglavians claimed 27 systems and are coercively integrating them into their society,
But the Drifters took over a billion people from null regions, in order to use them as biomass.
Not to mention killing the Empress of the Amarr Empire.
There needs to be common ground on which we can all stand to learn about what’s yet to come, and to understand what already has - but there simply isn’t anymore. I continue to return to a proverb that left its impression on me during my younger years’ schooling:
If Knowledge is Power;
And Power is Control;
Then to Know is to Control.
– Jovian proverb
Until we can return to seeking knowledge, our control over our circumstances will continue to stagnate. The complete lack of publicly accessible knowledge on the people and society of the Triglavians, the concealing curtain elements of CONCORD and the DED continue to keep drawn, the utter silence of the ruthless yet prideful Drifters - and so on - all mean that we can no longer move forward until someone else permits it. It’s suffocating, really.
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At the core of it all, I wonder at the truths of who both the Triglavians and Drifters are, at their core, and why the Drifters went so very far out of their way to pursue this civilization that had hidden itself away in the depths, seemingly with no intent of leaving.
What is their history? The Triglavians provide no information on this, only the continued affirmation that they, along with Sansha’s Nation, are a Poshlost threat that must be given no opportunity to progress their plans.
If the Collective, through @Seriatim_Foucault, were to perhaps meet those of the Empires halfway in a melding and revealing of information on the history of the era they and the Drifters branch from, perhaps a common intellectual ground - and a more concrete platform from where we might understand these “ancient enemies” of one another - might coalesce.
Until then, or until a similarly improbable revelation, we’re disappointingly stuck as we are.
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It is not.
Without Capsuleer support the Triglavians would never have managed to make the gains they did. Capsuleers were given too much independence when CONCORD was formed. This is the result. For every Capsuleer who is willing and able to fight in defence of home and family, there is also a psychopath motivated only by personal gain.
In order for this to happen, the CONCORD member states need to throw their full weight behind it, and so must all loyalist Capsuleers. Even if that were to occur, scientists must first unravel the secrets of the Stellar Transmuter that was captured in the Arshat system.
When did you go insane?
You have no right to tell us how to be Caldari, and everything that has been done to our people, and is still being done to our people, will be paid back with interest.
He is a traitor to his people. This is an abnormal state of existence that requires the individual to continuously delude itself to stave off the negative emotions that inherently follow that poor life choice.
They did not other you. You lot did that to yourselves.
Anyone who turns their guns on their own people is a traitor. How about that fact?
No one in their right mind is blind to the threat posed by the Drifters, but there are still Caldari citizens under foreign occupation inside of Pochven. As long as this is the case, the Triglavians must be fought. If there is presently no avenue to fight the Triglavians then those willing to fight them must prepare, train and stockpile ad nauseam until the go-word is given.
Sending Seriatim Foucault to speak to the CONCORD member states on behalf of the Triglavians instead of letting Zorya Triglav handle diplomacy would be about as sensible as sending Edward Adams to speak for the Chief Executive Panel instead of Chairman Akimaka Saraki.
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You make a good point, I spoke prematurely - though I’d more expect Foucault to be the one to appear if there were any public disseminations done in person, as we’ve never seen an actual Triglavian appear in any Capsuleer-accessible chat channels. In terms of actual, behind-doors diplomacy, of course it should be actual Triglavians voicing their side.
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We have in fact seen Zorya Triglav make broadcasts over GalNet on a regular basis, and she was less abrasive than that terrorist wannabe.
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I speak of local channels and the like. Zorya’s only broadcast directly to network channels visible by us in space has been the hacking of billboards - with every other one coming through Semiosis Consoles. Sadly, these too have been silent for ages.
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I happen to agree with you, wholeheartedly. Nothing that I have said here should be construed in any way as a rejection of the Empires themselves-- only as the spirited defense against outright misinformation that some of their apologists keep spewing on subjects they know nothing about.
Nor have I expressed a single opinion on Subcommander Foucault’s provocative exhortations to the kybernauts, in which he asks us to take up arms against the remnants of EDENCOM and the Empires. I said that I recognized it for what it was - agitprop - and that I recognized the strategic value of his move on the diplomatic chessboard.
Because what you stated is precisely, painfully true. The Drifters ARE the true threat: not only to the Collective, not only to the Empires, but to all of New Eden in and out of the Abyss.
You are not the only one who thinks it pointless at best and actively self-sabotaging at worst to continue to agitate over a conflict that ended more than a year ago.
To any independent capsuleers willing to look beyond their grievances and focus on preparing for a future where Empires and Abyssals must join together for survival against the greater threat, you have a sympathetic ear-- and even an ally, with me and with Stribog Clade.
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What nonsense. The Summit is neutral ground and has at least as many triglavian mouthpieces as it does any other political entity these days. It is not a place one should feel comfortable, but it certainly is not an echo chamber.
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I would. Every system they attacked started at some arbitrary ‘half-way’ point between Trig conquest and… status quo. Capsuleers had the list of potential targets even before the invasion began, in no small part because of work like yours, and that information was available here, which means it was available to CONCORD and EDENCOM.
If CONCORD/EDENCOM hadn’t literally half-assed it, both in preparation and operational integration of their assigned Navy forces, I suspect the Kybers would have succeeded in exactly 0 systems, and been the oft-mocked footnote they deserve to be.
Frankly, Uriel, the Drifters don’t strike me as much of an actual threat so much as a potential hazard. Leave them alone, and they’re generally quiescent. Yes, they killed Jamyl Sarum. So what? The attack on nullsec was… feeble, and endangered only idiots who would just as likely have died to pirates, hostile capsuleers, or, frankly, drowned the next time they were on a planet and it rained.
Hell, they got slaughtered by Astrahus- and Raitaru-class structures. It was easier to kill them than it is to kill a single Kestrel in those things. If they attack again, they’ll die, again.
They’ve demonstrated they don’t need Foucault to speak for them. They’re more than capable of sending messages directly from their Convocation of Triglav Outside the Struggle directly to every damned neocomm in New Eden, whenever they want. Face it, Uriel: they don’t want to tell us a damned thing, or they would have.
As a result, everything that comes ‘through’ Foucault has to be considered suspect—because we have absolutely no reason to credit him as being a trustworthy source, and if it’s not something he’s making up whole cloth, it could have just come straight from them.
No, your allegiance should.
There’s no actual evidence of this. The Drifters did attack both the Empire and nullsec, but those attacks ultimately amounted to little more than your average Sansha raid. Everyone makes a big deal out of them killing the Empress, but it was one titan, in the age before the upgraded defensive systems such ships now enjoy.
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The whole Drifter versus Triglavian thing strikes me as some ancient grudge I’ve little to no reason to care about.
I don’t like either of them. I’d be happy if they wiped one another out. But the Triglavians seem to be the much bigger threat. Drifters aren’t to be taken lightly, but they haven’t abducted entire solar systems and corrupted their stars. I wouldn’t mind EDENCOM to also be assigned to handle Drifter incursions into empire space if they started doing that to a meaningful degree again. But as it stands, the Triglavians still occupy 27 systems full of people and the Drifters mostly just reside in Anoikis and pop out to be slightly annoying sometimes.
Hell, if anything, the Drifters are helping us by fighting with the Triglavians in Pochven.
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Similar.
To me, the Triglavians look down on us and impose terms on us we definitely didn’t agree to basically because they can. They even seem to have set up hunting grounds where they can pursue us for sport.
In other words, they’re awful to us but also seem to recognize us.
The Drifters … don’t. We know they can speak, but they have nothing to say and their silence just bleeds contempt. They mostly leave us alone (with some VERY NOTICABLE exceptions, why yes the Amarr Empire is I believe still at war with them not that they seem to have noticed or to care), but they look at us as insects.
If they could be persuaded to see us as other than vermin, maybe there would be some possibilities there.
But for now, neither is our friend.
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I’d disagree, and, while the drifter’s ‘scale of attrocity’ may seem smaller(well, not really, I’d argue the scale of attrocity is higher, as Uriel pointed out, the more than a billion people taken by the Drifters were killed and used as biological fodder, where as the majority of humans in Pochven systems are, more importantly, not murdered and liquified), trying to frame them as being helpful to your cause in Pochven is a non-starter. And, as has been pointed out more than once, despite EDENCOM and CONCORD’s continued posturing, diplomacy is possible with the Triglavians, as we’re seeing with the continued information leaks, and images of diplomatic vessels of the empires making contact with the Clades, something that has proven, repeatedly, to not be possible with the Drifters.
On another note, Mr. Foucault strikes me, largely, as a zealously eccentric convert, with his own agenda to ply and push. I’d personally take anything he has to say with a notable freighterload of salt, as has been said a few different ways, from the OP, to other capsuleers in the thread
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Are you really this blind? Or is your narcissism so great that you cannot see a threat unless it directly affects you, personally?
Actually, never mind. You’re probably busy planning another party to throw in your own honor.
Dear God, woman. Aren’t you part of the Amarrian loyalist alliances these days? The Triglavians took a couple of backwater systems from the Amarr and barely put a scratch on the Empire’s military or economic engines. Meanwhile, the Drifters murdered the Amarrian Empress in front of trillions of Amarrian citizens.
Let me give you some advice, as someone who lived almost her entire life as a natural-born and loyal Amarrian citizen: next time you find yourself in a room full of loyal citizens of the Empire, best not to sweep the Drifter threat under the rug like you’ve done here. You’re liable to be thrown into a mental institution for demonstrating that you have lost your ■■■■■■■ mind.
Similarly, as someone who spent a great deal of time more recently living and flying with nullsec capsuleers outside of Empire space, best not to minimize the Drifter threat outside the confines of empire space, either. You might just offend one of the billions of people who lost friends, family, and loved ones to Drifters who harvested them for their body parts.
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I don’t believe Aria needs any advice from a traitor about how to behave in a room full of loyalists. I also do not believe that her words downplay the magnitude of the threat the Drifters represent, just the immediacy of said threat.
And as for the systems taken, Raravoss and Niarja were strategically important provincial systems, and certainly not backwaters. There is no denying that despite our solid resistance that was notably successful in repulsing Triglav invasions, the places we lost represent the largest setback for the Reclaiming since the Jovian War and the Rebellion. My personal estimation is that the greatest external existential threat to Amarr remains the various Jovian Successor States.
While it is possible that a negotiated resolution to the conflict with Triglavians might occur, should that be the will of the Holy Empress Catiz, downplaying the importance of the occupied Amarr worlds is not a winning diplomatic strategy.
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That’s a fair point. Strategically located, although neither of those systems were particularly heavily developed, unless I misremember? I was thinking more in comparison to a system like Vale, in principal example. Vale was a very heavily populated system of the Gallente Federation; and arguably of more significance to its former sovereign empire than Harva, Raravoss, or even Niarja was to the Amarr.
Fair enough. That said, I stand by my point, which is that the losses the Amarrian Empire took as a result of the Triglavian invasion pales in comparison to the severity of the loss that the Drifters inflicted on the Empire by murdering the Empress in spectacular, cold blood. Moreover, anyone with even a remotely functioning brain should have no trouble concluding that the Drifters are a far more devastating threat to all of New Eden than the Triglavian Collective.
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This is not the clear cut case you are trying to make it.
The Empress Jamyl I, of Glorious Memory, was made Empress via a miracle. She was also taken from us via a completely out of character action on the part of an entity we do not understand. This lends itself to many interpretations. One of which is that the Drifter fleet was God’s tool to return Jamyl to Heaven. You can even find a variation on this narrative officially commemorated in the artwork on the side of the capsuleer issue of the Apostle. I am personally somewhat unconvinced by this narrative, but I am not qualified to judge it (that is the Theology Council’s Jurisdiction), and would just hold it up as an illustration that how we interpret the Drifters in Safizon is complicated in a way that Triglavians in Raravoss is not.
If we look at the rest of their behaivior, I am personally inclined towards the view that we are wise to be at war with the Drifters and that they are a serious existential threat whose potential for destruction is quite high. But the Triglavians are here now and occupying key chokepoints in Amarr space.
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