Stats always matter, even if you are poor at applying them.
Stats determine the ingame entity as a ship/character, to which those skills are applied. The ship/character is BUILT of stats. Thats all it is. A collection of numbers/stats.
The stats dont magically disappear depending on how “skilled” a player is.
Fixed that for you.
You still can’t make any kind of practical use of those stats if you DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU’RE DOING.
It’s that simple. A man with the fastest car on earth who doesn’t know how to start it won’t be able to use it for anything. And when he finally learns how to start it, he’ll be more likely to crash it into a tree than beat even a Nissan Leaf in a drag race without an understanding of controlling straight line speed.
An untrained man with an M4 is going to die to a trained soldier armed with nothing more than a flashlight. A semi-competent F-4 pilot is going to lose a fight to a MiG-17 pilot flown by an ace. This happened quite a lot in Vietnam, even when they started putting guns on the F-4s. Just because you have the top-shelf stuff doesn’t mean you’re going to win. I’ve shown you multiple examples of your assertion that numbers and stats win over everything to be quite plainly false. Your ignorance of them doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
For the record, the RAAF rent a room at the facility I’ve been doing simulation training in, and one of the pilot instructors got bored one day and we got to talking, and he decided to let me have a run in the sims they have there, and test me himself. I took up a fully-loaded F/A-18E and he took one with just guns. Engagement opened at 130km, he evaded ALL my BVR missiles, closed inside me and faked me out to make me waste my Sidewinders, then tricked me into a stall to get behind me and finish me with his guns.
This is an example of me being on the receiving end of better experience. I knew full well that I was likely going to lose to this much more experienced combat pilot than me, despite having the BVR advantage. The ‘ship with better stats’, so to speak.
An SP injected new player has better stats than an equally new, un-injected player.
Even vs an experienced player, the SP improvement on stats of a new player will improve performance. Even if the new player is afk, SP invested in tank will increase the ships EHP.
Nobody is arguing skills dont matter.
But your statement that SP injectors dont help new players AT ALL, is just flat out false.
I was responding the the assertion that skill injection makes new players ‘competitive’. Competitive against who? According to you, other new players. Once again, you miss my point: skill injectors are more helpful to veterans than to newbies. This has been my position from the very beginning. Your contention to this has been “but muh stats and numbers hurr durr!!!” Veterans with better stats and numbers will always beat newbies with better stats and numbers. Skill injectors don’t help new players at all because if they help new players in ANY WAY, they help veterans even more, which basically puts new players back where they were to begin with, if not even further back.
You just seem to be having such a hard time struggling with the idea that this is a competitive game, Salvos, and you are taking a very narrow approach to all of this. I suggest you broaden your mind, maybe try some meditation.
In my experience (and it echoes the opinion of many pvpers), it isn’t a binary choice between SP and pilot skills.
Both are important. However, the game has much more depth than simply “the ship with the best stats wins”. Player skill is a hugely influential aspect and a good pilot with fewer skills and an on-paper poorer fit, is not at a disadvantage against a stupid player with more SP and “better” fit.
If the game was as simplistic as SP is all that matters, it wouldn’t be 15 years old and PVP wouldn’t be a major drawcard the game has.
Thankfully, it’s far more subtle than that and no one off dick waving dual is ever going to prove anything.
RNG, luck, mistakes, good piloting…can all happen to everyone (even the most seasoned pvper).
However, in a choice between a smart pvper and an low skill player with lots of SP, I’d put my ISK on the smarter pvper every day, no matter how many skill injectors the less knowledgeable player has injected.
A new player with SP injected will outperform a new player without SP injected.
This refutes the claim:
More SP helps everyone. That’s the whole point of SP.
Not necessarily no. We don’t all learn at the same rate, nor do exactly the same things in the game, so the player is still important.
A dumb player will still be dumb, no matter how many injectors they activate.
I’m not going to get involved in the drawn out (any more than it already is) discussion. It’s too subtle an issue to reduce to a single truth.
No, it doesn’t, because helping new players beat other new players doesn’t help them at all. All they’re doing is beating people that don’t know what they’re doing. They don’t learn anything from that. Once again though, you continue to ignore that my primary contention has from the very beginning been against the idea that SP make new players ‘competitive’.
“More SP helps everyone that knows how to use it”
FTFY. And no, it doesn’t. If you’re flying an Ishkur and you have 100mil SP, but only a few of those are invest into your ship and fit itself (say lvl 2 Assault frigates, lvl 3 drones, and so on and so forth) while someone else who only has 25 mil SP, the same Ishkur, and all SP focused on that ship and fit, the player with the least SP has the SP advantage.
No, more SP doesn’t help everyone at all. More SP applied in the right place by someone who knows what they’re doing with their SP pool definitely helps, however. SP does have a limit, for everything. You don’t just add more of it and become better at the game as a result.
But, you believe whatever you want to, Salvos. You’re always going to anyway. I’m just going to keep countering your nonsense wherever you expatiate it.
Then the argument is that intelligent players benefit more from SP than dumb ones.
That may be true, but that isn’t what Remiel argued.
He said:
Yes, in my opinion intelligent players will benefit from more usable SP than a dumb player. They’ll also be able to overcome the limitation of less SP as well.
I haven’t read the whole argument. I’m not that interested in it, especiallly the dick in hand “come fight me bro” stupidity.
No need to.
The statement at issue is this one:
I think there is a whole lot more statements at issue than that, which is also why it’s a dumb argument to get involved in.
No. Only that one, despite attempts to conflate it with exceptions/conditions/caveats etc to backpedal out of it.
The statement is horsecrap. Remiel just refuses to admit that.
There’s no issue with that statement at all. It’s a factual statement. You’ve yet to present an example of it being untrue except to say that it makes new players competitive against other new players.
Which they already are anyway. I’m not arguing with you, Salvos, I’m explaining why you’re wrong. Which I’ve done repeatedly now, and at this point, your continued ignorance is just tiring. We’re done. You’re wrong, and that’s all there is to it.
False.
You stated skill injectors don’t help new players AT ALL.
This is categorically false.
Do you wish to re-formulate that claim?
I’m not going to keep repeating myself just because you can’t stop. I’ve addressed your arguments. I’m done. You’re wrong.
Thats called brick/stonewalling.
Oh, the irony.
Do you wish to re-formulate your initial claim?
Do that and you can withdraw with a semblance of dignity intact.
No, it’s not. I’ve addressed your arguments. It’s not called stonewalling if the argument is over. It’s called ‘denial’, on your part, and your own inability to come to terms with the fact that you’re wrong. You keep being you, Salvos, and never change. For the three years you’ve been active on the forums, you never really do anyway. Ever obstinate, ever petulant, and ever wrong.
EDIT: as if you, a complete nobody, has any say over my dignity.
And ever arrogant, it seems I forgot to mention that one.