Would you, the players who already play, start the game at its current state, and keep on?


(Selphentine) #1

I wont claim an eve is dying or something here, start with that. Im not even quitting, so no, you cant have my stuff.

But i want an honest opinion about what would be basically your “new player experience” when starting eve, and if this would make you keep playing. SOMETHING did back then, would it still be there? Or… would you just go, and why?


I may start with my opinion on this topic. Today, im not sure if i´d still be attracted to eve as a new player. Now lets see what would be MY “new player experience”, and why i think it would turn me off:

I´d start because i heared its an actual hard mmo, where people can do insane stuff like owning things that requires a lot of effort and people. Id probably read about titans and how they are so big that youd need to buy gametime and sell it the worth of thousands of dollars just to get it. (Im talking about a new player starting, so no discussion about this being correct). As a great fan of dark souls and other games that arent quite easy, and as a fan of mmos and generally not just ending stories , that would probably already catch me, but project discovery would do for sure then. So, lets go and Register!

Register: Okay, wow, one big "play for free " button. click
Log in with facebook? Mh. At this point id think this cant be the “Hardcore mmo”, this play for free stuff and a login with facebook sound more like candy crush. If i havent already read about it, probably that would be the end of my journey because it already screams “Easy f2p game with lots of p2w”, but hey, theres still people quitting because its too hard, so ill just give it a try.

Sooo… well. download. Partial download? meh, ill just give it few more minutes and look into the forum. oh look, a new forum is currently in work, lets see!
To keep this on topic ill not explain why getting a achievement for liking someones post in a forum would nearly bring me to edge of uninstalling again because this again shouts easy f2p game.

Okay… start the game! Mhh… races… Choose and wow, what an character editor! its so… wow, its awesome. Can i do more with my char? Strange, i thought its only spaceships… why didnt i read about this yet? Well, whatever. Awesome!
After… like one hour of getting my char good id really wonder how detailled and great the character editor is.

Okay, start the game then!
Well, and instead of a sandbox, im thrown into a tutorial. Okay… wow. this is… difficult… and the windows are strange… but i guess thats complexity, huh. Well. lets see…
Id start questioning why this “Hardcore sandbox” starts with an mini campaign instead of just throwing me to an open world and let me decide, what´s my goal. Hm. And after getting the basics, id encounter another problem: It hangs, when you do it before she´s finished telling you to do it.
So id REALLY start questioning what i heared, because currently, i saw “free to play”, facebook, forum achievements and a tutorial thats nothing like the game i heared off. However, lets just say that doesnt make me quit.

Now lets see. Okay. im docked and… Hum, what now. Lets see what buttons i have… “captains quarters”, sounds interesting.
Whooo! my char runs around! lets see… wow, theres my ship and… lets go down… A TV with ingame news, several options to make and stuff? wow, does this game really include a whole walking part? Mh, theres the door.
"Station atmosphere not yet…"
Mh, okay, so they´re just patching this in, hu, lets see some research…
And after some Research id find the next dramatic discovery. They didnt touch this since 7 YEARS? You can create a character in an awesomly detailled editor just to run in this… jail? And the reason were protests, after they wanted to introduce clothing worth 50+ bucks? What the fur is this?

Id probably think that i didnt really expected a walk around game and just start wondering if they actually care for the game. So far i saw a tutorial that wont let me come further if i speak to fast and wasnt even close to an sandbox, and an character editor/walking around part thats just… half finished, since years now. well, press the captains quarters button again and just ignore it… with an feeling like im starting an dead game, considering im already seeing things not properly implemented.

Well, lets see. Career agents it leads me now, so lets do it!..
At some point, i´d probably get an question about it. I mean, its still complex after all. So lets see what chats i have!
Mhh… the “Rookie” chat… sounds good… - but as i´d hear that this is the chat only for rookies, and the help chat is another, i´d probably look forward to this. So, time to go to “Hilfe” (as im a german player).
Well, now that would be… A bunch of people discussing stuff, and a very harsh tone. Id wonder, isnt this moderated? As this would be my FIRST question after seeing the stuff in there, id get the following answers: "Not really ;;;; sometimes a guy comes in here"
Mh. My feeling intensivies. Half finished stuff, bugged tutorials and missing chat moderation? wow, this seems abandoned. Lets question that BEFORE i continue at all.
Probably i’d get anwers like “dont troll” “its offtopic” and “no, its still active”. offtopic, mh? Now id ask where a general chat for that questions and talk is then. German, if possible. “They removed it, werent able to moderate it anymore. Theres this inofficial chat [link]”

And wow, that would be shocking. Again: They removed it? they didnt want to moderate? this keeps seeming dead, man. And after atleast the german inofficial channel is an ABSOLUTELY catastrophe, i´d already wonder if i kept playing. Till now, my new player experience was, that this game lacks developers and the community are pure psychos - and i didnt even finished career agents yet! And id be turned off by the lack of an capital like “if i dont do anything, i show off and chatter there”. Theres just… space, a help chat with semi-psychotic guys and a chat with purely psychotic guys.

So, for the assumption, lets say i keep on because im still interested in this sandboxy thingies. after finishing my career agents, id ask “Do i have to do that, or is this a pure tutorial?”, and probably people would say “You should do career agents and probably sister alitura, but you dont need to. Do whatever you liked from the career agents, or find another way”.
And they would link me this awesome “what to do” map, where i´d think wow, so THATS the sandbox!

Now, it gets really strange. On onehand, id probably notice: Soloing eve is meh, and id probably get that through forums. So, whats the “guild” here?
And man, thats the next problem. Asking this in help would result in “offtopic” and other comments, that are far from friendly. Id probably say i dont ask for a specific one, i just want to know the basics. What should i look for, etc. Where´s this big ass stuff that dragged me into the game?

Well, and i´d read about wardeccs. I probably dont want to go into null and low on my first days, even though i´d surely already read that everywhere is pvp. One thing id think is awesome - its always dangerous, i smell a bit of the hardcore sandbox!
But what does a corp provide me exactly? I can already compress and reprocess stuff on public citadels. There are a lot of non-corp people providing help for mining too, so… if im in for that, it´d just be more dangerous being in a corp without me seing a clear advantage.
Missions? mh. Id ask, and get, that you can do missions with others, but it doesnt change and rewards are just split, so better solo them.
PvP?`Yeah, probably. Not on my first day(s) though.
So… to avoid wardeccs on my first day(s) id just stay solo.

However, i´d notice how low amounts of isk that generates compared to prices. “well im at the start” id think, but then… id notice the “buy plex and kickstart your career” thing.
And at this point, as a new player, id probably quit.
Because my experience yet was:

  • Its a game that uses register with facebook, free to play and such things to make me play.
  • It has half-finished stuff, tutorials far away from the game reality, and closed chats due to lack of moderation that makes me think they arent really working on this game.
  • What i saw yet was nothing like hardcore sandbox, more like farm your quests or do some pvp (which i wouldnt have tried at that point)
  • And it would seem like they´re just trying to cash me out by either make me grind or buy their plex.

The sad part is: This is not what eve is. There´s a reason im playing it now, and since years. Reasons like actually get a grab of the market (and plex), to notice where its hard, to try out pvp, to go out from highsec, or find out what to do there. Experiencing the sandbox. Experience what makes eve not just another game.

But thats not what probably would have been my new player experience.


In short, i want to tell you what kept me in eve back then:

Registering was normal, and there was a help and a german chat - help was helpfull, german… kinda psychotic, but hey, its the general chat, eh?

Starting the game was “F you, theres a spaceship”. Uhm okay, its a sandbox after all, and im stranded here, trying to make myself a career. Great, i love sandboxes! (yes, the lack of an tutorial would improve my “hardcore mmo” point and actually get me a like, and there where career agents back then too, which i ignored tho)

A corp was helping, as public citadels werent existing and the lack of a tutorial also made me hapilly join some guys before knowing what a wardec is or something. I mean, i dont have any idea whats going on, im glad i managed to move.

The game wasnt free, facebook-login didnt exist and plex werent shoveled in your face. I think i noticed one month in the game that you can buy plex to kickstart your career. There wasnt even any ingame shop, either.

And the vision, man! They just added building on planets? wormholes? they are working on a shooter LINKED WITH THIS? they are… working on walking in stations? Man, im so excited what the future will hold, lets start farming and fighting and getting experience for this future, when i may one day be able to use the isk to buy myself clothing!

Well, these days i can, he?

I know, it was a VERY long post. But i want to make you understand what my feeling as a newb would be these days. And most important: Why i would probably not start eve.


TL;DR: I wouldnt start with eve these days as my first experience would be a “cheap f2p facebook game” instead of what eve actually is.

And in this sence: CCP, please decide if you want a hardcore sandbox or an accessable mmo for the masses. Im not sure if any of those would currently get the feeling this is the game for them.


Eve's true disease - Goonswarm
(Lulu Lunette) #2

I think to put it simply - the players have lost sight of the light that was at the end of the tunnel. Yes I play this game even in it’s downward trend. I enjoy #tweetfleet, these forums, and the little things i do in the game itself. There’s so much to interact with outside of the big talkers on all the Eve Podcasts and the CSM types who overanalyze the game.

The game is indeed in an awkward transition; not because it’s going from hardcore sandbox to accessible MMO for the masses, but in transition from POSes to Citadels. They will definitely rework the timer mechanics for those, no doubt they will have some sort of degradation mechanic for unfueled ones. At least these are my expectations but it’s wasted energy and effort to blast the developers like the community has. And at the end of the day, if you feel like you have to lash out like that, just quit and take your dollars somewhere else. That’s what I’d do.


(Selphentine) #3

Well as i said i dont want to quit. I want to share what i think my experience this days would be. For me, its an dangerously downgoing trend, but at this point still fun for me.

I just wouldnt start currently, as i probably wouldnt even come far enough to see what makes eve fun.

And im worried ccp does the same that the star wars galaxies team did - killing the game in the process of making it more successfull, instead of creating a experience you cant get somewhere else.


(Zaku Ganymede) #4

My eyes


(Remiel Pollard) #5

Again, it all comes down to what EVE is, and what kind of attitude a player needs to have to find it worth continuing. I’ve been back less than a week after a five month absence, and already I’ve encouraged three alpha’s that subbing is worth it. All of whom I fought in lowsec after they came looking for a fight. Two of them I fought at the same time in a 2v1. People who understand what EVE is at its core, a PVP experience, who go out looking for that experience and find it, tend to want to stick around. People who ‘dindu nuthin and just want to be left alone’ shouldn’t be playing EVE anyway. There are other games for them. This has always been the case, regardless of the state of EVE. In it’s current form… well, after five months, I didn’t resub before checking the forums and reddit to see where it was at, and I still resubbed, so I still think it’s worth it.


(Loutro Fift) #6

Cheese and Crackers.

You ask a simple question in the subject line and then write War and Peace?

Either play the game or don’t.

Overthinking is a thing.


(Sethyrh Nakrar) #7

I have that fear too and I would probably not start this game at this time as a new player.
I still play it every day. But, when I read stuff like the ghost-training and that new event, I get goosebumps.

I love this game, because its so hard and harsh. But as a new player I would see that load of unfinished stuff, and would never mind.

Also the Hilfechat at some times and the German generally would probably inflict PTSS when I would read them without warning.

Storytime!
I startet first in this game 2009 with a trial. Tutorial??? Career-agents? LOL.
I just flew around, did stuff, killed NPCs randomly and did more stuff. One day I found a wreck. Looked in it and saw a yelow thing of probably incredible value. So I sold it for ISK and bought a expensive SE-ship. Nobody told me to NOT UNDOCK IT!!! So I fitted it horribly bad, and since I never learned to navigate properly, I flew from Amarr in the direction of Jita… Oh, well.
4 trials and years later.
I was bored, and decided to create a new one. Got in a not so good corporation, made an abonement and found a little time later a way better corp. And I am still around.
So for me it was probably the social interactions with others and after I understood most of the game finally, it was my personal reason to stay and play this game.


(Selphentine) #8

I answered the “play” question already.
And i did ask if you guys would start “again” in its current form. Not if you want to quit.


(Lulu Lunette) #9

Welcome back :slight_smile:


(Remiel Pollard) #10

ohaidere :blush:


(Xuixien) #11

EVE is fine. It isn’t dying. CCP revenues are up. EVE is in transition to something better and more viable in the current market.


(Selphentine) #12

So, my first sentence is that i wont claim eve is dying and i wont quit and your answer is eve isnt dying.
Mh.


(Coralas) #13

I restarted eve with this character. I haven’t dipped into my old characters finances for this character, and it was perfectly fine and fun. Even from the start I was able to afford skill injectors, and to be honest ,I found the stratios to be a massive shortcut for the things I like to do (combat exploration).


(Selphentine) #14

If thats your opinion thats fine :slight_smile: im surely not here to convince people its all crappy. Yes, the stratios and astero are great, and im thinking this skill injector thing isnt bad.

Im more saying: I wouldnt even get to that point these days, i think. To the point where i am, playing eve.


(Coralas) #15

The new player experience is a delay to an old player on a new character. Since you know the story in the new NPE doesn’t really fit in with the player stories, there is a good chance its not that interesting if you’ve played before. However that is not true for actual new players.

CCP would have statistics on people completing NPE, and people then making various conversions afterwards - it would a monumental amount of politics/face saving to prevent them yanking an NPE that was clearly reducing conversions.

Skill injectors are good and bad, but they do mean a returning player wanting to write a new experience on a new character can compress the frog killing phase and bring the game up to what they’d find interesting relatively quickly.


(Selphentine) #16

Disliking the NPE does not come together with experience. I dislike it because its not eve. Its fine on its own, but i always have an anology in my mind that Counter Strike starts off with an cinematic scene where you rescue hostages and play the hero - its not bad in itself, but its not reflecting the game reality. You know, most sandboxes throw you in and say “here you go”. Minecraft, ark, whatever you like to take as an analogy. Yes, the new player experience can only be praised by most people. But then, eve isnt for most people - and those liking the NPE probably dont stay long in this sandbox, anyways.


(Nora Maldoran) #17

I agree with parts of the tutorials getting bugged sometimes when you do them too quickly.
But how likely is it, that a new player is already will do them that fast?

Also you refer to the in-game channels for giving new players advice. “Rookie Help” is the one you get directed to by CCP, and that’s good.
The German “Hilfe” is, at times, pure shittalk. But I think that actually is very fitting for the “hardcore sandbox mmo” you want to play. If you can’t handle this you won’t make it far in the sandbox.

Everything else you mentioned is - in my opinion - only CCP moving on and adapting the game to the time that we are currently living in.


But to answer your initial question: Yes. I would. I probably would play it with an Alpha account until I woudn’t be able to skill any further. At that time I would have an idea what I could do, when I would subscribe. And me knowing myself, I would probably cancel the subscription for the other MMO I would have a subscription for and play EVE as Omega instead.


(Do Little) #18

For me, Eve is about outsmarting other players, succeeding in a competitive world that doesn’t have a lot of safety nets.

As far as the game mechanics are concerned, I want CCP to maintain a level playing field - beyond that, it’s my challenge to figure out how to make them work for me.

As a new player, I was fortunate enough to discover Eve University and some of Seamus Donohue’s superb tutorial videos. There should be pointers to this resource everywhere in the NPE and new citizen forums!

If you’re looking for a sandbox where the players are the content, Eve will capture you within a couple of weeks. If you’re looking for a theme park where the developers entertain you then you won’t last long in New Eden.

If I was starting over today, the only question is whether I could find the support to stick with the game for the 2 weeks or so needed to realize that it’s the right game for me!

This has always been CCP’s challenge and I believe new player corporations like Eve University, Brave Newbies, etc… need a more prominent role in the NPE.


(Selphentine) #19

Well, according to a few players… sometimes. It happens when they try to loot a can before actually being told, for example.

Rookie chat is still a chat where you cant be inside after a while of playing, what makes it quieter, but also you get far less experienced answers. Dont know if thats better.
The other statement is… quite confusing. What has my opinion, that the first impressions of the game would be that its easy, to do with shittalk? Man, the easiest games have the biggest shittalkers, because everyone can stay. Just give yourself a few rounds of LoL for example.

and the adapting IS the problem in my opinion. Because there are enough games out there for people liking that. Im mentioning SWG quite often, but it died after trying to get more mainstream. A lot of players currently enjoy eve because! its not mainstream. Because its hard in a time where the average game is just a skinnerbox to make you happy.

Well, thats exactly what i wanted to say. Im here. I dont want to quit. I know what makes eve awesome, but i dont know if i would “find the stick” to stay these days. Because, as explained long above, a lot of factors would probably prevent this “stick”.

Also im worried about the course ccp goes. Trying to make a niche game fitting for general appearance… ends up in loosing the niche without gaining “normals”, i think. Before creating this thread i spoke with some people i know, and consent was pretty clear and not quite good. However, im aware of statistically irrelevant sizes and tried to create a neutral statement, just explaining, avoiding judging.

And while i dont say the player number trend proves anything, it atleast seems to partially support the thesis that either old players are annoyed from the course, or less new players are attracted.


(Nora Maldoran) #20

Nothing. I understood you that way that you idn’t get the help you would have hoped for in “Hilfe” when you imagined yourself being new.

[quote=“Selphentine, post:19, topic:7744”]Man, the easiest games have the biggest shittalkers, because everyone can stay. Just give yourself a few rounds of LoL for example.
[/quote]
I don’t think LoL is and easy game. But it is easy accessible.
But I wouldn’t want to go so far to compare LoL in any way with EVE. They are just too different.

So you are afraid the NPE might not fulfill the expectations of people because it’s teaching them the basics of the game?

Would you kindly share those numbers and sources with us?