We all have opinions about other people.
HTFU.
I absolutely sympathize with you OP.
I, too, fly into an emotionally-charged frenzy when iām playing a game and my opponent chooses to play too.
For instance, I stopped talking to my best friend when he KOād me in Street Fighter. I was just sitting there and moving backwards (as a sign of non-aggression) and he did the unthinkable. Rat ā ā ā ā troglodyte.
EVE is not the game for you, iām afraid.
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Thatās fine. I accept that itās for the sake of generating a discussion, although personally as someone who leads PVP fleets I wouldnāt want to put a whole load of people who trust me in danger without their consent.
Personally, I donāt think youāve clearly defined what you call troglodyte behaviour. I understand itās core is around shooting helpless newbies. The way you charactertise it though seems to imply that not all PVP is troglodyte behaviour, like the mythical āfair fightā rarely, if ever, experienced in Eve. So thereās something akin to āgood pvpā and ābad pvpā.
My question is this: where is the grey area between the two states? At what point do you propose that shooting others is acceptable, and how should people in the business of shooting others work it out in the myriad complexities of eve?
My proposal is this: it is impossible to make any clear designation between the two. Eve is far too complex in both game mechanics and human interactions layered on them to define anything so simple as your ātroglodyte behaviourā in a meaningful way. Eve is designed to stress the bonds of trust heavily, and so designed to promote keeping your friends close and your enemies closer (in tackle range, optimal range and jump range).
Going contrary to the bloodthirsty design of Eve is perfectly possible, and it happens from time to time. However, since eve allows so much freedom of action, youāre dealing with unfettered mercurial human nature unique to every individual involved (and thereās lots).
I would say your argument for why peopleās humanity should trump their natural dog-eat-dog competition is far too simplistic. IT needs to be intensely tailored to the situation, and you yourself need to have a deep trust or human connection with a sufficently large number of the influential people in that situation.
Itās also worth noting that it is not impossible to do. Read up on the story of Chribba.
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On a lower level note, I have a friend who owns structures in highsec. Heās the only person in his corp, he doesnāt employ mercenaries and he maintains them fine without much trouble from wardecs.
The key is he has a deep understanding of the eve ecosystem to know what he can get away with, and what tools he needs to do so. He very carefully identified a niche, and even more carefully inserted himself into it.
Eve is a game of incredible finesse that takes a long time to identify.
I donāt see a āgender problemā in Eve. I see an entitlement problem amongst a few players who expect to be treated differently because of their personal characteristics.
I do, however, see the potential for a āgender problemā developing due to the injection of gender issues into a game where those issues have no immediate relevance. Your success or failure in Eve is not predicated on gender. Gender is irrelevant to the mechanics of the game and, in my experience, has been irrelevant to my social interactions in the game.
The artificial distinction between āaggressive maleā traits and ācooperative femaleā traits serve no purpose other than to reinforce stereotypes. You do not speak for āthe sisterhoodā and your generalizations about my male corp mates, friends, and enemies are potentially dangerous to the community.
Your comparison of the psychology behind the destruction of a ship or structure in a game and the rape of a real live human being is ridiculous. There is a very big difference between non-consensual activities in Eve and non-consensual activities in real life. I think you know this, @Lucii_Dowenport, but you advance the argument nonetheless.
I am a woman and in Eve I kill whenever I can. My reasons for fighting and killing extend far beyond ābecause I felt like it.ā I enjoy testing the limits of my abilities against the abilities of others. I enjoy learning lessons (oftentimes the hard way) from pilots who are more experienced and more skilled than I am, and each time I die itās an opportunity for me to get better. I also enjoy teaching lessons to pilots who are less experienced and less skilled than I am, oftentimes the hard way, and hope that they learn something from it. I enjoy s**t talking and the combat consequences that often flow from that. And yes, sometimes I kill because I know I can and I feel like it.
Your narrow view of āvalidā playstyles is likely to cause you a great deal of heartbreak in this game. Nobody owes you - or me or anyone else - anything. Everyone is fair game every time they undock. Every structure is lost as soon as it is placed. Coming to terms with this sooner rather than later will save you a lot of pain.
No one is entitled to special treatment in this game. No one is āsafeā from anything. In every situation, there are predators and there are prey. Gender has nothing to do with it. Spend less time trying to find gender-based explanations for why predators non-consensually kill, and focus more effort on not being prey.
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I agree that there is a certain level of finesse here, and that this is what makes EVE interesting.
This is what I propose:
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An embarrassing kill is one that didnāt take you any effort to do. You are an experienced player, etc, maybe a leader of a massive fleet of grunts, whatever you prefer to call yourself these days, but you could have shot that Astrahus in a Zephyr t b h. Not very impressive!
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The same goes for lurking on newbies in starter systems (which I know that some of you do) just to āsatisfy oneās own wishes to look ridiculousā, which is of course everyoneās freedom to do, but not very impressive either. I would never do so myself. Neither would I accept a reason such as āitās just part of the gameā.
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I donāt think the ātroglodyte phenomenonā needs a better definition than that. Everyone, every player, every pirate, knows in their gut what that is.
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If you choose to play like this, Trog, mind that you also have chosen the possibility of being seen as ridiculous by your opponents. As soon as you Undock you run this risk of becoming that target, as many of you have already pointed out! Not just by a commoner corp such as ours, but by other, bigger and more experienced corps in the game!
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Everyone is free to look up what aggressor was the most ridiculous that day and make their own pick and opinion about it.
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1st Collective will probably endorse this and encourage it because someone was foolish enough to attack us unarmed in the first place. Not personally of course, since we hold the personal integrity of players in high esteem!
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I know that some of you feel this is not embarrassing at all. Youāve made that loud and clear. Feel free to believe what you wish for your game to work out. I am simply stating the perspective of my corp and exercising my right as its leader to call out my aggressors as I wish. Anyone has the right to do so. Stop whining about it! It is just part of the game, you see.
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It may be argued that it was because of the clothes I wore, namely that we presented ourselves too attractively by deploying a structure in HS space, that I was attacked? As such the argument is similar to that of a woman being seen as the one to blame for her attack depending on how invitingly she dressed herself when the assault occurred.
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I refuse to think that players, and especially male players, reason like this. I have too much of a confidence in them, pirate or not.
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I am sorry, but this perspective on the game philosophies of some players and corps is too interesting to be left alone āundebatedā.
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In terms of āTrog behaviourā the embarrassment of attacking defenseless victims is always on the aggressor. Itās never the victimās fault that they were attacked. In this case we are laughing at the āridiculousnessā that these capsulosers have taken upon themselves to prove to the entire world of New Eden (cāmon an alliance with thousands against a couple of minute-new players?), and weāre inviting more to laugh at it too!
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You always have a choice! Noone is a slave under their impulses, not even if they think they are. Choose correctly! Fly safe!
Yes, itās totally because of the clothes you wear in EVE Online. What can I say, we are males, we canāt help ourselves when we see a woman ā¦ in EVE or on the streets. Every day itās a struggle to not jump them and end up in jail.
Happy? sigh
I mean, Optimus Minimus, as you must realise by now I am not at all interested in discussing what your human alt is doing on the streets on a daily basis.
Wow. Quite a threat. I see many more wardecs and salt posts in your future.
Where is your corp located? I would very much like to join.
Your constant likening of being fragged in a computer videogame to rape or sexual abuse in the real world is disgusting and incredibly disturbing. You seem to have very serious issues with males. Maybe you should go get some therapy or something.
mysogynist and feminist are the real troglodytes. Didānt help the world to be a better place. We exist because of the penis and vagina. Sexism is too dumb.
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While nothing in life is certain, I can almost guarantee that this is a dude whoās doing the gender-baiting troll thing that pops up on these forums about twice a year. Itās either that, or someone with a black avatar saying how they were attacked because of the color of their skin. Twice a year, like clockwork.
The corporation and the war and the structure and everything else is just a false flag op to make a troll thread and stir up some drama.
How do I know? I can tell by the writing, and, well, because itās exactly the kind of thing Iād do to entertain myself and others, if I were still emotionally invested in this game. The only difference is that I wouldnāt make it so obvious.
Well, I can only hope itās just a troll and not an actual person with such a distorted view of reality.
But but butā¦ I like them, no no no!
Also thereās soooo many of them!
And then you said this:
Perfect.
Last I checked no woman consents to rape when she leaves her house. You do consent to PvP when you undock. The rules of Eve and real life arenāt the same nor are they remotely equivalent. No one who actually recognizes rape for the atrocity it is, would even make the comparison between a video game and real trauma.
As to your statement that your corporation would consider such attacks āridiculousā is meaningless. Cool, you think itās ridiculous, but your ship is the one that blew up. Whoās laughing? Because your Corp is the one that lost members, not BlackFlag. So clearly someone cares enough about getting killed in order to leave.
Also, I would add that honestly the way you run your Corp is a travesty. The fact is you knew that a structure made you wardeccable. You also refused to set up comms for your Corp and even asked me to come run the training and PvP aspects of your corporation and most of the day to day affairs so that you could be the āenigmatic Queen,ā from behind the scenes that didnāt actually do any of the day to day running of your Corp.
You abdicated your responsibilities as Ceo.
You led your newbies on.
You got wardecced after ignoring warnings about structure mechanics.
You egged on your enemies by naming your structure a homophobic slur.
You also failed to provide any meaningful way for your newbies to protect themselves.
In short, you made your bed and now you have to lie in it.
Non consensual PvP is not rape. And your situation is hardly justified given that you had both warnings before and after you onlined that structure. This situation is very much of your own to choosing and comparing this situation to sexual violence is disgusting and honestly trivializes what many men and women go through on a daily basis.
You lost.
Learn from it and move on.
You are 22% snuggly! What could possibly go wrong?!?
Alright, thats enough. Thread closed.
This thread, and topic, cannot be recovered. I thought maybe all of you can be trusted to behave, just this onceā¦ I have yet to learn my lesson in this.
~Buldath
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