ADC Mining barge + Orca Triage or PANIC module

Hi there Devs,

I have a suggestion which I am trying to see get some traction over here ADC Mining barge OR Orca Triage or PANIC module

Please consider the possibility of an ADC for mining barges OR redesigning the new industrial core module to make the Orca a HS triage machine if an outright PANIC module would be considered to OP.

to be fair, if a rorqual gets a panic module to allow for defence formations to come to their rescue, as the king of resources gathering in the game, i see no reason why orca’s exhumers, mining barges etc, shouldn’t also get some kind of tempoary panic mode. perhaps something which lasts a shorter length of time, a module with 30 second cycle time but can or perhaps something which just lasts a solid 5 - 10 minutes.

The reason is concord.

If any such panic mod or adc is made for barges or orca then it will be low/null only.

1 Like

Not entirely how I am trying to push for it - think more along these lines; if you are locked onto a rock to all fleet members within range being protected, but you (the Orca) could still go suspect if your safety was set to yellow and a fleet member was at war for example.

I fully endorse the Orca ADC/panic module.
I would never abuse this mechanic :innocent:

Nah, what you’re asking for is too much. Miners still need to be vulnerable to ganks in hi-sec.

The panic module isn’t there to make rorquals invulnerable. It’s to allow a fleet to form so a fight can happen. But in hi-sec, no such fight can happen because of concord. Unless you suggest the panic/adc means that concord don’t respond, e.g. the whole mining fleet goes suspect?

And providing fleet assist to members that are wardecced gets a concord response, not suspect.

2 Likes

perhaps some kind of half way happy module which allows resistances similar to an ADC but not as much? i know ships just got a bit of a buff so i don’t know if barges should, but i can see some kind of orca panic button.

Now that an orca can’t move with its core active, I would like something to make it less of a sitting duck if I am paying attention.

Okay, you can get 490k EHP on an orca with just a T2 tank, and that’s before before implants.

Add a cheap abyssal damage control (T2+decayed - CPU dump stat), and that will get you up to around 505k. Cheap abyssal shield extenders (T2+decayed - CPU/PG/Sig Penalty dump stats) can also add about 2k EHP each, but I wouldn’t fault people for not bothering for so little EHP.

Naturally, implant costs can vary dramatically, but with about 2 bil worth of implants (mix of mid and low grade nirvanas, SM-705, MC-805, and Ore Mining Director Mindlink), you can get up to 600k EHP.

And I don’t know how much T2 industrial cores will ultimately end up costing, but with a T1 industrial core, the expected loot drop of this fit is only about 65 mil. Of course, any ore/ships/mods/charges you’re carrying will add to your loot drop, but it would take an additional 350 mil worth of crap to get you to the break even point of a 32 man fleet of perfectly skilled catalysts (best isk/dps ratio of ganking ships) in a .5 system with a concord pull (i.e. ideal ganking conditions). Naturally, number of ganking ships and/or cost of ganking ships scale up from there based on sec status, and gankers will need even more DPS in practice, in order to account for things like less than perfect skills and less than perfect execution.

Honestly, what more do you want? How safe do you have to be? Do you guys just don’t know how to fit your ships? Are you bad at math, or not understand how ganking works? Do you need a crash course in using intel tools? Are you extremely risk adverse? Or, do you guys just want to be able to afk mine with zero ■■■■■■■ risk?

I don’t know what groups you guys fall into, but I do know that the orca is sitting fine where it is -and this is coming from a guy who has a vested interest in flying orcas.

Sigh. And, you don’t just want buffs, you want MASSIVE buffs.

Seriously? Activated ADC resist bonuses for 30 seconds.

I mean, why stop there? How about 30% bonuses to shield boosts… and armor and hull timers… and the ability to cast mirror image… oh, oh, and make it so that gankers have to see an ultrasound of an orca being built before they can turn their safeties to red…

Oh, and how about let’s not spam the forums with this, and split the discussion between multiple threads. One is more than enough.

Ok so my issue isnt the Orca tank - hence why I am pushing for it to get atleast a Triage mod / or the industrial core modified for RR instead of local tank bonus if that makes sense?

My final request is the Triage mode for an Orca to help prevent but not stop ganking just enough to allow the miners a chance to survive potentially, whilst not preventing ganking from happening - the way I added having a rock locked was to stop it being exploited on gates / away from mining areas.

Noting how I said " OR " ie, not all of them but I would prefer a triage mod for the Orca above all else to give it the ability to (based on individual pilot skill) help defend high value mining barges against ganking, but not outrighly preventing it.

Buffer tank is generally better than active tank because ganks happen so quickly. Thus, you’ll generally get more EHP out of a straight buffer tank, than would be repaired by an active tank over the course of a gank. And, I haven’t looked at every possible scenario, but generally speaking, you need to have a crap ton of logi on field (i.e. an incursion logi squad), before remote reps become more important than having a good buffer tank. Thus, “swapping a local tank bonus for a remote rep bonus” would probably be worse for fleet survivability. Maybe if you fit a bunch of remote reps to your orca, and pre-locked the fleet, things might work out, but it’s going to come at the cost of links and/or the industrial core.

Send, you do realize that the orca pilot can already chose to use active shielding charges, which boost remote reps, right?

Third, the barges don’t need more survivability. And I maintain that anyone who says otherwise has made some bad analysis. Here’s a link to where I go over some fits, as well as provide a short spreadsheet of t2 cats required tank various barges with various fits.

Fourth, why do so many people say that they’re not trying to kill ganking, while proposing changes that will effectively kill ganking and/or make themselves immune to it?

Like, you do understand that this is, for all intents and purposes, indistinguishable from an I-win button right? I haven’t done the math, but If orcas had it, they could get somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 million EHP. And barges and exhumers would likely see EHP’s from a couple hundred thousand to what an orca or a bowhead can currently get. So, did you not understand how powerful this would be? Or did you know, and think that that it would be good for the game?

Needless to say, I adamantly disagree with your analysis and your suggestions.

1 Like

I think he’s also forgotten that the barges and orca can overheat their mods.

1 Like

well… if you’re afk any kind of orca panic button is going to be useless because you’re just going to get chewed through by a large enough group to take you down, so it wouldn’t really matter.

my comment about seeing some kind of orca panic button is based on the principle

its always been my interpretation that the natural progression in terms of skill level is
porpoise → orca → rorqual

just because the rorqual is a capital ship doesn’t mean it should be the only one within the industrial command ship branch to get some kind of panic module, its a known fact that orcas and miners get ganked a lot, but specifically in regards to the command ships I can see some varient form of panic module.

considering your points about the EHP and such, i don’t really know anything about that tbf i have had other things happening in game, but i think what would be better is to see these command ships become much more defensive in their capabilities.

pretty sure it was another post i mentioned about getting some kind of massive combat drone bonus, but in truth what i’d like to see is perhaps some kind of varient of the edencom chain lightning weapon, with a huge boost, i don’t know anything about the stats of these weapons as i’ve never fired one, but in truth its simply a case of i think the visual astetic and concept would be cool.
it would also make it part of the foreman role in the game to defend the miners working under you and also worth while training some of the edencom skills outside of edencom vs trig stuff.

similar to how a command ship can burst and boost all miners they can now discharge a weapon and defend all miners too. this would make the command ship more of a formidable foe when hunting.

personally i’m just following the logical progression of technology (technology gets smaller and more compact so a PANIC module for a rorqual could exisit for the smaller commnand ships)
and also just the rule of cool (making command ships have awesome defenive capabilities)

these two things do not have to be mixed either, it could simply be one or the other

and prevent pvp pilots crying thats theres nothing to hunt, when in fact it would be more of a case of the hunt is more dangerous.

in nature there are actually examples of marine creatures defending themselves, electric eels spring to mind based off my chain lightning idea. but there are also sharp apendages which some fish can deploy and have been know to cut the hands of fishermen who drop them back into the water.

the PANIC Module is the eve equivilent of what i like to think of a hedgehog defence, curling into a protective ball till predators go away or EVE’s case help finally arrives.

1 Like

Here’s 1 weeks worth of orca ganks. Admittedly, the sample size is small. But I’m not going to manually collect and input data for a years worth of kills. Maybe @Scipio_Artelius might be willing to use some code to do it for us. But honestly, I’m not sure it’s worth his time (unless he finds it fun). Because people don’t care about data that doesn’t validate their already existing opinions. So, it will largely go ignored by all the people that think PvE’ers need to be buffed, and/or ganking nerfed.

Anyway, here are some trends among the orcas that died (plus some interesting notes).

  • 45% had empty slots
  • 95% had no tanking rigs
  • 41% Had no DC (How much EHP it adds will vary depending on other tanking mods, but it can add 100k EHP by itself)
  • 23% had active tanking mods
  • 32% had cargohold expanders (which give a penalty to hull HP)
  • 3 Guys had inertial stabs fit (with two of them dying on gates -For those that don’t know, a MWD will reduce an orca’s align to 10s.)
  • Thanks to cargohold expander penalties, one guy had less EHP than a completely unfit orca
  • One guy didn’t bother fitting any tanking mods whatsoever, and decided to top things off with a burst jammer.
  • The average tank of a ganked orca was 46% of what you could get with an all T2 fit and no implants. (Naturally, you can actually get much higher, especially with implants. However, I didn’t know what kinds of implants all the victims had, and I wanted to make an apples to apples comparison. I also wanted to compare to a cheap T2 tank.)

And, honestly, I think there’s a lot more wrong with these fits than just what I noted. These are (mostly) just what I consider to be inexcusable mistakes. Like, you can debate whether or not it’s better to fit for yield or tank, but it is inexcusable to leave slots empty. Anyway, the one exception to my list of “inexcusable mistakes” was the lack of tanking rigs. While I don’t consider a lack of tanking rigs to be a good choice, I don’t consider it to be inexcusable either. However, so many of them were missing them that I wanted to point it out.

Anyway, like I said, the sample size is small, but I think there are some clear trends here -namely that the orcas that are dying deserve to die because of how poorly they are fit. Moreover, what is missing from the list, are properly fit orcas. So, I don’t know where people are getting the idea that orca’s need a buff, because it looks to me that what’s getting orca’s killed are the players that are flying them, and not the attributes of the ship.

1 Like

wow this is a lot to take in, but ultimately it looks like having some kind of panic button not only would be cool, but also something seriously worth entertaining, this is only a small size sample of people getting ganked in high sec, where concord should of responded more effectively.

I’m glad that you have gone through so much hard work to provide these stats, ultimately people have the right to play anyway that they choose which doesn’t mean flying something min maxed, for those who are not clearly needed some kind of extra protection, an orca can easily be a flagship for a corporation and its loss can be devistating to a corporation function especially if consistantly harrased, if these pilots are so easily ganked.

then in my mind i think there should be some form of varient available to these people.

i’m not talking about nullifying risk, just mitigating it a bit more in favor of the orca pilot.

considering that the orca and rorqual are intended for large fleet support.

yet other than boosting skills and speed they don’t actually have any way to functionally support a fleet, defend their miners or even themselves.

additional

considering how difficult these vessels are to build and the cost to replace them has increased, i think the defence of one’s assets (which you might not have the skills to fly something minmaxed) should be appropriately selected, crafted and implemented for the Orca & Rorqual, i have often posted about having a massive increase in drone damage, this way they can operate as defensive platforms for their miners and make them formidable enemies. this way all the hunters who run around going

“waah theres nothing to hunt waah” can just cry harder when they’re faced with a fair fight.

1 Like

I’ve seen other people make similar arguments before, and this one in particular is weirdest ones I’ve ever heard. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying you’re an idiot or anything. It’s just such a weird way of looking at things that it kind of leaves me befuddled. Let me put it this way.

In a PvE game, you are essentially in competition with the environment. You have to develop and employ strats necessary to overcome the problems and challenges that it presents. And if you don’t, you’ll usually die and fail to progress (a few games will automatically and silently lower the difficulty if die a bunch).

In a PvP game, you are in competition with other players. You have to develop and employ strats necessary to overcome the problems and challenges that other players present. And if you don’t, you’ll die and/or lose the match.

Now, wouldn’t it stand to reason that, in a game that allows for and encourages both PvE and PvP, it would be necessary for players to develop and emply strats that are necessary to overcome the problems and challenges presented by both the environment and the players?

So, I just don’t understand it when players says things like, “why should what ships and fits I fly be dictated by other players?” or this:

There are already a ton of games out there that are PvE focused, and many that have designated or opt-in PvE systems -and this is because this kind of stuff is very popular with players. So, you already have a ton of options. The people who love Eve for what it is don’t. So, I’d prefer it if players stopped trying to turn Eve into a poor initiation of a PvE-focused game.

Speaking of which, Zhaled linked a video discussing why New World failed. Of course, bugs certainly had a big impact. But a major reason cited for it’s failure is that they decided to shift focus away from PvP at the last minute. This meant that the game had to stand on the strength of it’s PvE content, which was decidedly lacking.

Anyway, this post is getting long enough. So here’s a shotgun of opinions.

  • Eve is great because of it’s PvP elements, and minimizing or removing them would kill the game, not save it.
  • You shouldn’t fly what you can’t afford to lose.
  • You should implement proper risk management strategies, not advocate for your enemies to be nerfed, or their play styles to be removed (which is what some players have called for).
  • Ganking is already so heavily balanced in favor of prey that profitable ganking is already contingent upon prey making one or more mistakes. Thus, further buffs to prey, or nerfs to ganking won’t make things more fair, but less fair. Of course, that won’t stop prey from asking for “one more nerf.”
  • It’s ironic that players insist that they shouldn’t have to adapt to hunters in order to not get killed, because hunters have to adapt to prey in order to get kills.
  • Speaking of which, gankers in particular have had to go all in on a glass cannon strat because of concord mechanics designed to suppress “non-consensual” PvP in highsec. This resulted in (most) prey having to go all in on a buffer tank strategy. It’s like an evolutionary arms race similar to that between the garter snake and the toxic newt. The newt keeps becoming more and more poisonous, while the garter snake responds with ever increasing levels of of toxin immunity. The difference with Eve, however, is not that they prey gets tougher to kill, but that they keep asking for nerfs to ganking, while gankers have to keep responding with more ships (and ganking becomes harder and less profitable to do).
  • Ganking is asymmetric game play. It’s like the asymetric PvP horror games that has one monster/killer and several human prey. The prey don’t need to be as strong as the monster for the game to be fair or fun. Regardless, many of the nerf ganking crowd advocate that ganking be balanced as if it were symmetric game play -which it is not. Now, if you want things to be balanced as if it were symmetric game play, then we would need to get rid of concord. But that will essentiall turn HS into LS sans capitals.
  • PvE’ers have already received a ton of buffs, and ganking has already received a ton of nerfs (yes it also has received some buffs, such as with the surgical strike update). Yet, this has never resulted in the nerf-gankers being happy -why? Because they don’t actually want ganking to be balanced; they want to stop falling victim to it, without actually having get better. And they won’t be happy until it’s dead.
  • If you rush into an expensive ship without training your support skills, you made a mistake, and deserved to die. You should then learn your lesson, not lobby for CCP to change the game so that such mistakes no longer get punished.

Gankers are already fighting a unfair fight. I would be a bloodbath if gankers only had to fight a fair fight. And carebear tears would flow like a river.

yes, clearly killing ships in high security space so large they’re a step down from capital ships by using big enough groups that you’re powerless to do anything to your aggressors is clearly a fair fight.

so a new bro into the game who wants to fly the big awesome ship and is still learning about the game, get ganked with no means to defend themselves.

again there should be some kind of defensive module or some kind of drone damage increase to further a ships defensive capabilities. its these reasons which are known to gankers because these ships basically have no viable means of defense against large enough groups.

better yet a defensive module which boosts drone damage capabilities, this way its at least half way happy, because i do think its a joke that a fleet support vessel has basically no capability for killing but people out there hunt in heron’s, which are meant to be exploration ships
Capsuleers

But they do have ways to defend themselves. If they didn’t, every single gank would be successful.

Again, we already have this. We’ve had this the whole time.

What do you think a shield hardener is? Or a damage control?

And skiffs drone dps has more than doubled since they were first made.

Bolded the important part. The more tank you put on a barge, the larger and LARGER the groups are going to get.

Look at freighter ganking.

We could make it a low slot and call it a drone damage amp…

And people hunt in mining ships too.

Even before the 2012 buffs, back when mining barges had the tank of frigates:

Or in a mining frigate:

1 Like

This topic was automatically closed 90 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.