When objectively better and more capable, adaptable and worthwhile doctrines exist, even in their price range, it’s indicative of poor capabilities. Of course, it’s not proof of it, but it certainly indicates it. There’s really no reason to risk the entire operation falling apart if even one more enemy appears in local when there are options that can both deal with a citadel and a defending fleet.
Unless of course, there’s doubts about the capabilities of pilots in said fleet.
Yeah, but given the mechanics of WarDecs, if someone comes in as an ally, you’ll know it’s possible in advance. So if you’re using that doctrine, you know there’s nobody coming to help.
There’s a mere four hour delay for defenders to be active. If there’s a timer to contest, that leaves little room for figuring out what viable doctrines can be used for all your fleet members, procure all the vessels and fittings, transporting them to location etc.
I’ve seen reports of Goon fleets (and others of course) spending more time trying to get fleets running with already determined doctrines, finished logistics and so on. With the relatively wide span of entities that tend to shake their fist at the Clown’s Circus Tents, such coordination is probably best to deal with ahead of time, no?
Besides, lingering corporation invites doesn’t even take that long.
More than four hours? Not… in the last six years, no.
As for the coordination… just two doctrines would be enough: a brawler, and the ravens.
Brawlers would probably be a poor choice in a Citadel fight. Application at range tends to be more important, given the unlikelihood of getting to have both the citadel and an enemy fleet within brawling range. You think they have multiple doctrines at the ready, then?
"Dear widow or regional equivalent, we’re terribly sorry to inform you of your loved ones untimely death. We were going to use a safer and more effective doctrine, however Mizhara Del’thul thought this would be ‘Dull, cowardly and indicative of poor capabilities’.
Rest assured, your partners death was entertaining."
What does everyone have against boredom?
Honestly, I like being bored. It beats excitement.
Excitement makes for more meetings with the damned accountants.
It’s really not difficult to have brawlers on-field to mingle with the Ravens in case close support is brought in. Or just a tiny set of Longbows or Windrunners.
Nauplius: “I have built a slave-sacrificing shrine”
Angry Minmatar Lady: “I am OUTRAGED that the Amarr are not shooting this guy!”
Amarr pilots: “Your citadel shall fall, heretic”
Angry Minmatar Lady: “I am OUTRAGED that the Amarr are DOING WHAT HE WANTS by giving him ATTENTION !”
Nauplius: “Woe, my citadel was attacked”
Angry Minmatar Lady: “I am OUTRAGED that the Amarr are not shooting this guy in a MANNER THAT I APPROVE OF !”
Amarr pilots: “lol”
Angry Minmatar Lady: “I am OUTRAGED that the Amarr find this amusing. Truly, it is evidence of the corruptness of the Amarr socio-political system”
lol.
That’s the part that is in question. Use whatever you want, but the point remains that Coward Ravens are very far from the most effective doctrine if anything other than a gunner’s seat shows up to the party.
So you guys still haven’t figured out that there is no way to actually exfil any ‘loved ones’ or otherwise from those circus tents? Once they’re in his hands, the only point of vulnerability where you can intercept them is when he’s hauling them there. Once in the Citadel, Upwell ensures they’re returned to him no matter what doctrine you use, or when. Don’t bother pretending it’s ever been about ‘saving people’, no one with a brainstem would fall for that line.
Bashes will pretty much always be boring. The point of a more effective doctrine would be to ensure that the boredom isn’t compounded by failure. It wouldn’t be the first time he suddenly had allies on field. Now imagine if one of them had a shred of competence.
Inefficient though. You’ll end up with a decent chunk of the fleet not being able to do much of anything but potentially getting volleyed or chased off the field by the Citadel. Combined Arms fleets are definitely a good thing, but also requires more significant numbers to avoid the mainline losing its punch.
It’s kind of cute how a little discussion on fleet efficiencies ends up with so much pearl clutching and hostility. I suppose it shows what kind of userbase this particular forum trends towards.
Have you actually fought or flown in a Raven fleet?
It’s probably PTSD from fighting INIT… Although, I will add that INIT.'s mjd Raven doctrine is not the same thing as the highsec “Coward Raven”.
The highsec version is less mobile, but with more tank, and is quite capable of defending itself against “more than just the gunner”.
It’s odd what people complain about these days. Someone is slaughtering innocent people but surely the biggest complaint is what ships that are being used for stopping it. What’s next? Complaints about which colour they paint the ships? Truely Gutterpress material here.
I have, yes. Both in them and against them, to the point where we found and exploited the weak point of it, but as Kalaratiri mentioned it’s the kind INIT pioneered, which is a different animal from the Coward Raven. Funnily enough, it’s even more cowardly with its Boosh play, but to be fair to it, it requires far better cooperation than most doctrines so that risk averseness is fairly justified by its prerequisites.
Very effective beast, unless very specific counters are on field.
Mh, yes, I guess that kind of deep-seated hurt might’ve led to utterly unselfconsciously saying phrases like “one decent scram in play and it’d be torn to bits.”
Hardly much hurt when we successfully broke that doctrine. When it’s the only thing they ever undocked, even us dunces managed to find the weakspot and turn their efforts in Syndicate into largely crying in local, trying to find excuses why their favorite doctrine wasn’t working anymore.
And yes, it only takes a decent scram that can stay alive to seriously mess up the highsec coward ravens, when there’s a citadel on field, unless they bring a lot more logistics than they usually do. Without the warp-out option, those things are too thin to withstand the incoming damage.
There’s a reason they cower out of range, Jev.
Is it really cowering though, or is it just being sensible? People don’t sit in range of a Keepstar’s doomsday with their carrier fleets, why should they sit in range of an Astrahus’ missiles and tackle with their Battleships? Minimizing risk is just a standard precaution that everybody takes.
I’m struggling to see why you have such an issue with this Mizhara. Do you have some personal disagreement with the Raven’s designer? A particular hatred of cruise missiles? Why do you care so much what tools are used to defeat Nauplius?
Hrm, good question. Well, would have been if I actually did care. Don’t mistake idle boredom on these boards as emotional investment. Why it’s caught my attention for said boredom alleviation, it’s twofold, I guess. On the one hand, I simply dislike “cheese”. If you’re not going into a fight with the intention of fighting, it’s just so… pointless. There’s no real statement made, no real effect that couldn’t be replicated by venting the same amount of Upwell Crew out of any airlock. It doesn’t send any kind of message except “this is as far as we’re willing to go against the enemy. Just close enough to lob munitions, but we’re not willing to face any kind of risk or danger in doing so”. Another particular feature of cheese is that it’s so very situational.
In this example, it’s a horrendously inefficient and vulnerable doctrine, so it’s not even good at its main risk averse purpose. There’s so many counters to it, the very moment the enemy count goes from singular to plural. It’s an example of the denizens of this place persisting with the mantra that improvement and efficiency is for all the other people. That going a little further than the absolute base minimum to even function is something to deride.
So no, I don’t really have “such an issue with this”. It’s just idle entertainment, spawned when an idle mention of the Coward Raven ended up with a small host of pearl clutchers getting up in arms about it. So, a return question then: Why are people so affronted by the notion of improving their fleet capabilities, when it’s such an easy thing to do?
It’s remarkable how well this statement applies to Nauplius himself.
This is provably false. The Raven doctrine we’re talking about doesn’t need to warp off, because it’s quite capable of fighting back, even in brawling range. (Edit: Oh hey look, I forgot this fight actually finished with the Ravens chasing the Machariels).
Because you’re not really advocating for anything that does the job better, you’re just pushing for something that does it different. Based on your own personal prejudices, I can only assume, and the mistaken belief that because something is able to fight at long ranges it’s somehow inferior.
Is there not one pilot with a warp scrambler who will stand with the Red God in this hour of need? O how wicked is this generation; O how vile is this generation!