Good post. But bots will still have an advantage, IMO. Because they don’t sleep and can immediately replace sold-out orders, they will be able to put up smaller orders, on average, than humans, without risking missing out on a large chunk of sales. So their overall exposure will be less for a given number of widgets sold, even if they’re no better at calculating Y than a human.
2 Likes
Correct, but I wasn’t really arguing that to him. More just the fact that this will be the optimal strategy under the new system and explaining why. Technically this is the best strategy even now, but 100 isk to update is hardly a factor worthy of note. However, the new fees will make it mandatory.
Sadly, I foresee a lot of newbros losing big when they attempt to break into industry for the first time, let alone simple market trading.
What people seem to be missing here is that staying on top of the orders, either for a human or a bot, is going to be much less important under this new system. The combination of tick size and adjustment fee is going to crush margins to zero for actively traded items. Under this state, selling/buying to orders is much more viable, and probably is cheaper for the non-specialized trader, as it already is for razor-thin margin items like PLEX.
This is good for industrialists.
The 0.01ISKing game isn’t necessary in an efficient market like this. Reaching the equilibrium price should maximize the rate of trades and ensure fairly priced goods will move faster without the need for bot-friendly 5 minute adjustments.
Yes, people will have to adjust how they use the market, and people don’t like change. Accepting existing orders will often become the better choice, and if you are a station trader flipping items skimming the margin, your game has been nerfed hard. But for the industrialist, the market should serve them much better, and they should be able get a fair price for their inputs and outputs easier, without playing the brain-dead mini-game of continually adjusting orders.
Bots will always exist, but there just will be no profit for them to skim in the actively traded items. There will still be a place for them, and station traders is less active markets, but the markets for more highly traded goods will be dominated by real economic activity, not day traders like today.
The major danger here is a lack of liquidity, but this will likely be self-regulating. Active items will have no profit to skim in no time and will probably be abandoned by the day traders and bots, but they will have enough “real” interest and ISK to be fine. The bots and day traders will move their ISK to more thinly traded items and places where they can still scalp some profit, and provide some needed liquidity there in exchange for the profits they skim. But they won’t be so effective in the very actively traded items where their liquidity isn’t needed.
TL;DR. If you are an industrialist stop worrying about the bot boogeyman. These changes are intended to favour you and bring about more efficient markets where 0.01ISKing/bottling isn’t necessary. Even if some bots may persist, you should be much better off with these changes than with the bot-friendly status quo.
2 Likes
It’s also going to cause the rise in freighter/transport traffic as indi-types will no longer need/want to haul their good to a hub just to trade on contract…but they will rather just do it at the nearest NPC station.
Dust-off those fatboys…time to haul?
(also, gankers are going to have way more targets)
I hope we see the return to hauling the HS<->NS runs again…but that’s unlikely…
2 Likes
No, it is not.
There will be no price equilibrium to be reached under the new system. If spread has been removed for an item, sell orders around the current price will be snagged up until only those priced quite a bit higher are left and the spread is there again. Unfortunately, with the new system small orders are the new meta so there will not be a lot of volume to be snagged up, thus making for prices going up again, and again, and again.
Also, somebody who uses bots for trading and finds his current market unprofitable can easily change into another product. The skills are the same and escrow is small with small orders.
An industrialist on the other hand needs time as he has invested in escrow, blueprints, research and skills to build a product.
1 Like
Of course there will. These changes are completely intended to bring this about. The tick size will push the price towards equilibrium faster and the re-listing fee will discourage “unfair” offers and other silly trading games that have nothing to do with the underlying economy. That is the whole point of these changes.
But there is no point arguing about this. These changes are coming shortly and we can both see for ourselves.
How is the removal of a large central trade hub, where everybody used to haul their wares to and from going to increase freighter/industrial traffic?
When large scale industrialists have moved their trade off the market due to the changes, those wares only go directly from buyer to seller rather than from buyer to JIta to seller as before. How does this increase traffic?
Becasue those wares will need to go elsewhere…
I should clarify: More transportation everywhere not just to/from hubs. The net transport might stay the same relative to the about to resources needed but where it goes will change…
Sorry for that…you are right that I wasn’t clear…
Actually the amount of freighter or indy jumps through gates (only those matter for gankability) will go down as the direct path from a seller to a buyer is most probably shorter (at best equal for a very small amount of cases) than from seller to Jita to buyer as it used to be.
Also since gankers tended to like the 0.5 chokepoints at the pipes to Jita, spreading traffic out is not going to increase their trade.
1 Like
Possibly…the other angle is that if these changes benefit indi’s, we’re going to see more of them and that means more will move to lower tax stations which tend to be in more dangerous areas…which will increase distance/danger…etc…
Either way, it’s a good thing…unless you are a market-type like me 
I’m an industrialist and I don’t see the changes benefiting me, not at all.
I have seen the small order bot behavior driving prices up to what seemed equilibrium (helped by some who made big jumps in order offer a “fair price” only to get overbid by the minimum amount seconds later) in very actively traded markets for some of my raw mats. Because no equilibrium was ever reached as long as the bot was active - sell orders near what seemed equilibrium were snagged up instantly and the bus rode on uphill.
When this happens the only way is to leave your order sit and wait a few days until things cool down a bit.
I can’t just quickly make another product since my other orders for that batch have already been filled and I have blueprints and skills for that product and changing that takes way more time than a bot trader changing market.
1 Like
If i’m a small producer, if my profit on something I made is 10%, everytime I undercut someone(or just change price), you get taxed 0.7% SO …:
you change your order 14 times, and your 10% profit is gone in fees. (i think)
So you can’t even drive prices down to get rid of people, and then set them back up again.
What i think will happen is that Sell Order prices will drop towards the 0.7% profit, where you can’t change prices
and then stay there.
the market will be filled by milions of little orders, instead of one big order that people update.
And someone will stick one massive order on near the 0.7% threshold, and that market’ll be dead.
I can’t see how this can do anything else but screw manufacturing.
Since anything made in eve has to be sold,
Say you make a Leshak, take it to Jita, stick it on, some guy puts another one on. you are then stuck.
Your options are update, until you’ve got no profit, make more Leshaks to stick on at a lower price, tying up money in stuff on the market that won’t ever sell.
At that point manufacturing becomes unprofitable, cos you can’t sell anything?!?!?
wtf?
2 Likes
Becasue the most efficient way to sell now will be bulk orders on contract. WAY less fuss, faster turnovers and more personal contacts (maybe). You will sell larger quantities and stop trading per se almost altogether.
Now, where do You think that elseware will be? Think about location of most mining volume, moon ores, production infrastructure. If you cut out the trader middleman and do direct producer consumer logistics do You still think that most of those trade routes will go through high sec? Have fun ganking JFs and Titan bridged freighters if they do not need to gate to Jita anymore.
I’m mostly talking about HS/LS…but yes, there will be an increase in hauling but not necessarily to do with hubs.
Yes, it’s already the case. And as I wrote it was already the best strategy, not 0.01 isk - except for bots.
No, they will be less effective to “cut by placing new small orders” than they are now to “modify -0.01”, because they are limited by their number of open orders. IF two bots are on the same item, they will just starve each other’s available orders slots.
Meanwhile players without a “0.01 isk” complex will still exactly be able to place new orders.
What makes benefit, is your gameplay, not being a bot : 0.01isk is killed, which was the main way to react for a bot - and for bot players.
So yes, it’s completely stupid to say that bots will bypass the relist fee by placing new orders. They can’t. Just as non-bot can’t.
1 Like
You NEED to remove the order modification 5 minute timeout then.
The .01ISK game was NEVER about optimising price, it was about maximising uptime. I’m there babysitting my orders with penny jumps because I’m saying to the other people in that market “I have more time than you”. I can get to the 5 minute timer within a second each time, so every second you don’t is a second longer I have on top of the pile, grabbing all the audience.
If you want to get rid of the penny game, you need to make sure you’re addressing why the penny game works. If I have to bid one tick above someone else, only for them to outbid me, and then I have to wait five minutes, that’s not the market achieving equilibrium. It’s crippled by something someone just forgot to think about.
Remove the timer.
In slower regions, I do price in larger increments, or essentially, at what I think is a “fair price”, that will be fulfilled eventually.
Stop talking about “bypassing” the fees. No one said anything about bypassing the fees.
People are talking about being able to maintain the top position - in EVE you can only buy/sell to the top position.
I already explained to you that the bot order limit is irrelevant. Because ALTS are a thing.
At this point you are incredibly low IQ, or just trolling. Im gonna go with that you are just trolling or hate traders so much you enjoy seeing a profession go puff and vanish from the game.
“You don’t have permission to access this resource.”