CCP should seriously consider removing Local from Null

EVE Technology and Research Center Player Features & Ideas
1147

Relying on CCP Falcon for reasonable answers or approval of ideas is rather funny. That person is partial and lacks competence beyond belief. Not to mention that CCP has no idea on how to fix local without the “fix” being either

completely in favor of the residents
or
completely being in favor of no content at all because hunters can’t hunt and residents defend unproportionally.

Until CCP turns Null sec into the same money cornucopia that W-space is, removing local is not an option. Only when you can actually have a fleet doing PVE without losing money on doing PVE (ie. what W-space is currently) then you can remove local because then it is reasonable to fleet up all the time. As long as PVE in null sec relies on solo to make some money at all, removing local is not reasonable.
However, knowing CCP (I exclude devs like karkur or punkturis from that generalization, who have genuinely positive effects on EVE with their work), they will again put the cart before the horse and call it “iterative development to see how people respond”, their ultimate killer explanation to thwart all criticism of their lackluster development quality.

And until they do either: How about you leave High sec for a change and roam around in Null sec to make it a little bit more dangerous? Or alternatively, stop posting with your forum alt so that I can see if you do at all anything you demand from others. :roll_eyes:

1 Like
1148

Fair enough I wasn’t using him as an example of how to fix the issues, rather to point out that I’m not the only one talking about such things as Mr Ruthless was making out.

A massive amount more ISK is grinded in nulsec, pretty much risk free. WH space isn’t nearly so risk free which is why it’s ok for it to be good ISK. That’s what i want for nulsec, a better Risk vs Reward ratio than currently.

I will soon as Nulsec becomes hard enough to be interesting. This isn’t a forum alt, it is my main char. I do however run several accounts for different things. During my time in Deklein I was shocked to see and experience how risk free the ISK grinding has become, and how local chat has overtaken every other tool in the game as the one and only intelligence tool. Understandable really because it’s like a little red light that flashes when you need to dock up, who would use anythign else? I also do a fair bit of wormhole PvP and did until the last year or so spend quite a lot of time in Nulsec, including living solo in a Nidhoggur for weeks on end. I shouldn’t be able to survive so easily alone in a capital ship in nulsec but there you have it, this is what it’s become.

1149

The problem is that this would not change for an entity like CFC. They would just use bot-like chars on gates (please don’t tell me about the EULA, it’s worthless in that regard) to monitor gate travel and report hostiles passing through. They would see you but you would not see them. However, only the most organized groups with the biggest and most RL-bored IT departments could setup such a tool for their members. Everyone else would not have access to such a very powerful tool to monitor gate activation and in return it would favor the biggest groups massively over smaller groups and create a very uneven playing field.

Why should it not, though? If you keep your eye on local, monitor your probe window for signatures, keep an eye on the intel channel, maybe even have a scout in the system next door if you are a renter-like being. With all this effort, why should you not survive and live fairly unmolested? After all, you pay attention to the game.

In my opinion, the problem is not so much local chat itself that provides safety. It is the lack of people in Null sec, the lack of roaming around groups, the lack of more variety in group sizes and group types living in Null sec. With more people living as none-blues in Null sec, you would have a lot shorter downtimes of people coming into your system and a lot higher chances to grab someone off-guard. Removing local, however, does not help with this.

The massive amounts of ISK generated in Null sec happens by solo activities and spread over lots of systems. If you look at this faucet breakdown, you notice that 12T ISK is generated in W-space, but 55T in Null sec. A lot more people live in Null sec, however, than in W-space, which means the per-capita income in W-space is a lot higher than in Null sec. In W-space, you can grind 2B ISK in an hour of dread ratting (obviously only high class, but still) and you only require 1 system for your entire alliance to sustain such an income. Your guys can also rat with you in fleets to protect themselves against would-be attackers, but you barely lose any income from the fleet. And you only have to monitor 1 system for hostiles as opposed to lots of systems and variable entry points in Null sec. (gates, cyno, covert cyno, wormholes in Null sec where W-space only has a tiny number of wormholes leading into your crabbing system).
Furthermore , in Null sec, a Sanctum as the best anomaly is only 30-40M ISK. Bringing a fleet there for protection ruins your income because the more people you bring, the more the bounty is split and you can only finish them so quickly.

Therefore, if you want Null sec to become more like W-space, you have to factor this in and make Null sec in general more like W-space: Stronger income in less space to condense groups more and open up more space for more groups. I am not categorically against removal or limitation of local, but on it’s own it is in my opinion not a good idea. It ought to be part of a general, profound rework of Null sec to create the necessary environment to work out well.

1150

Why is this even a problem. You keep going on about these massive risk free ISK faucets, but you have never said why it’s a problem in the first place. How does it affect you at all if someone make 150mill an hour risk free? Do you want them to make 15 mill an hour and have to spend x10 longer PVEing?

Removing local doesn’t make things harder, it makes things take longer. Use your brain for once and realise that.

1151

What effort? Casting your eyes 6 inches to one side to check for red squares in local chat? Intel channel is at least human input but it is still free intel from the magical safety blanket. Intel channel that required human scouts to be in space doing scouty / scanny things would be very cool (and harder I know) instead of the current meta of just looking at local chat. Monitoring the probe window for signatures has nothing to do with safety in Nul, if there is nobody in local you are safe (unless awox).

Then lets create some chaos. And it is categorically local chat that provides safety, or the carebears wouldn’t be so scared of losing it.

That’s fine, WH space is risky.

You can do that in Nul once local is gone. Problem solved.

Come on. You guys always going on about Cynos in nul but tactically omitting them here. It’s only on WH space you even need a defense fleet in same system.

Only in terms of local chat, not all the other (many) differences.

I’m ok with better nulsec income to support the added risk, though not a straight 1 for 1 trade.

I agree assentially, since every major game change needs tweaks to keep things flowing. Nulsec would be more fun without local though UNLESS what you want from local is low risk ISK grinding in which case obviously you’re going to be effected big time (rightly so).

1152

Why do you think players want to be on standby to protect me just incase I get attacked while ratting. Your suggestions are so stupid. Plus you’re assuming it’s easy to outescalate any drops, all your idea does is give more advantage to the blobs that can drop anything they like. ■■■■■■■ idiotic logic.

1153

Because you’re in their alliance. Good alliances have standing fleets exactly for this.

I can imagine risk seems stupid to a carebear.

It makes it harder for everyone involved. You merely can’t understand that i want a change for the game that does not favor risk free ISK grinding.

1154

BIG alliances you mean to say.

What’s the problem with low risk isk earning. Why does it matter if people make lots of isk?

Stop talking rubbish, watching d scan insead of local does not raise the difficulty ffs.

1155

Nope, good ones.

Because it’s destroying the economy, breeds flacid wendys who bum local chat and of course because EvE is supposed to follow a risk vs reward system. By all means do low risk PvE for no money in hisec. In nulsec it is supposed to be risky and make a lot more money, not be even safer and yet still really good income.

You clearly have no idea how to play EvE. D-scan has a max range and requires human input, and there are tactics you can use to stay hidden from it. Explain how that is as safe as local chat showing EVERYONE in system instantly with no player input. Even automatically feeding info into bots for further risk reduction.

You’re scared. I can tell because your lips are moving and there’s this strange whistling sound.

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1156

Prove it.

Doesn’t matter how good you are if a big alliance can out escalate you, idiot.

Doesn’t matter, if you are on scan you won’t catch me.

If you cloak then why would I ever bother to rat in an expensive ship? The answer is I wouldn’t, nor would anyone else.

requires spamming a button. If you had the ■■■■■■■ slightest clue what you wa talking about, you would realise that human input in a game is supposed to be meaningful. spamming a button is the most meaningless human input possible.

1157

I don’t need to, it’s common knowledge. CCP famously attempted to nerf carriers to try to stem the flow of easy ISK into the economy quite recently. There are hundreds of forum / reddit threads about it for you to read, as well as a bunch of research and graphs from CCP directly corroborating the fact that nulsec ISK grinding is too easy. Purely because you have been living under a rock doesn’t mean I have to lead you to the truth.

Don’t get caught. Rat aligned and escape soon as anything decloaks as just one example of tactics that can save you. Set up an actual intel network that doesn’t rely on local chat and pick your position carefully, taking into account the jump ranges of various large groups around you. You see you’re pretending that you HAVE to rat in a specific place, but that’s only the case if you’re in an alliance (which should be able to defend itself because this is EvE).

There are also a bunch of ships that don’t show on dscan. Secondly you have to actually click the dscan button to see what’s around you, which is miles better than local chat. Thirdly, you would probably still rat in an expensive ship because you’re a carebear who only thinks about ISK. If you don’t that’s even better because it means there is a valid risk vs reward exchange happening and you are taking it into account, unlike currently.

That’s way better than no interaction at all. Purely because some people won’t do it (they won’t) makes it meaningful.

I would explain my points clearly and concisely, like I have been doing. You should take a leaf out of my book, they’re tasty.

1158

Well it seems to me your whole argument is based around ‘isk making is destroying the economy’. Define what destroying the economy means and why you care. It’s pretty obvious you don’t care and you just think it’s the best way to get your own way. You don’t want the game to be harder, you just want it to be easier for you. Stop being butthurt that you suck at hunting, it’s YOUR fault, not local’s fault.

1159

My whole argument is that the biggest profits should require the most risk. It’s a simple concept that i have stated many different ways and you are still too stubborn to admit it.

Your argument is based on fear. You’re dripping with it so much that it gets all over the floor even as you concoct that zinger about me being bad at hunting or something. You can’t really insult the skill of someone who is actively trying to make the game harder for themselves and everyone else. I mean you can, but you sound silly :blush:

1160

What are profits for?

1161

What ever your little heart desires. Might i suggest you save up and buy a clue?

1162

Answer the question.

1163

Mechanically speaking PVEers leaving because of hunters is understandable.
But how will PVEers know that hunters stopped hunting? To know this one needs to be there and do PVE. And PVEers already left.

And don’t forget about real-time free intel on form of Map statistics. As soon as someone does PVE everyone in EvE has information about this activity and its place.

1164

They have that regardless of whether there is Local or not.

1165

That’s the point he was making, giving the advantage to the hunters because they won’t need to check systems. Map statistics is pretty much local intel for hunters, you want to remove one then remove the other.

1 Like
1166

A) Hunters need advantage in EVE, or there is no incentive to initiate non-consensual PvP.

B) Map statistics are distinct from Local. Local tells you who is in the system. Map tells you what has happened in that system.

C) Hunters already see if there has been PvE activity in a system. There is PvE activity arguably in all systems. PvE activity in association with mining is tiny.

D) Hunters dont look at PvE activity levels primarily, they look at Map data on gate use/players active in system.

E) The need for d-scan use by non-PvP pilots in a system in the absence of Local, is matched by the need for d-scan use by hunters to establish their presence/location. Its +1-1=0. Furthermore hunters may need to use combat probes to further localize a potential target, whereas a local can instead rely solely on d-scan.

F) Local currently telegraphs the arrival of a non-friendly whilst they are still in transit to the system, allowing for ample time to initiate a warp to a safe before the hunter even arrives in-system. This is a huge disadvantage to hunters currently.

G) Even with Local, hunters STILL have to d-scan to find targets in the system. Local doesnt tell the hunter where the potential target is. Whereas potential targets in that system dont. They can just initiate warp to safe the 1-2secs the incoming unknowns gate transit is initiated and reported automatically to Local.

H) Even in the case of a WH- arrival, potential targets in the system dont have to d-scan. They see that an unknown arrived, automatically.

TLDR: The d-scan issue is nonsense. With Local, potential targets dont have to d-scan at all, ever Local datai forms them automatically, for free and with no effort. Hunters ALWAYS have to d-scan to find targets, whether Local exists, or not.