CCP should seriously consider removing Local from Null

EVE Technology and Research Center Player Features & Ideas
1288

I was advocating for something like this in the past, others as well.

But removing local, as it’s usually called “a free source of intel”, is half-baked solution. It must be paired with some kind of redrafting of cloacking mechanics, which are being another loophole in the whole Eve’s “you’re always at risk unless you are docked” paradigm. The current cloacking mechanics make you perfectly, absolutely safe while you can put zero efforts in staying safe at the same time, just sitting there, gathering free intel, waiting for most beneficial conditions to attack - all totally free of charge.

This is absolutely disgusting over-simplification of otherwise thrilling and skill-demanding espionage mission, I must say. If we finally go as far as removing local, this atrocity must go next. What must come instead of it is cloacking mechanics bringing experience similar to what commanding a submarine was/is - when you never can feel safe, must plan each your move even when you’re cloacked to maintain your disguise, and is not allowed to stay in one place afking as if somebody wants to find you, they will, unless you will make some active effort to evade them.

2 Likes
1289

Here is a couple of follow-up ideas for the whole “local from structure” thingy.

  1. When structure is up, local will show only those who wants to be seen. First of all, it would be your allies and those with enough positive standing (the usual practice will be for those to set up in settings that they want to be displayed in friendly locals). Others remain mystery unless they are on grid with you (so you don’t know what corp/ally they belong and who they are), but you may see them factored in a counter of max ppl in the system (until structure is up and running). But keep in mind that cloackers are not immune anymore and can be hunt down and probed with enough persistence! Non-cloackers can be scanned as usual, so if you are ready to fight to get rid of them - you are always welcome.

  2. Anybody, even your corpmate or ally, can deliberately “step into shadow”, disappearing from all locals

  3. Different kinds of cloacking vessels may employ their advanced espionage capabilities to hack into those communication structures instead of simply bashing them, thus gaining access to data on who is online in some remote systems, how much people are registered with it etc - at a cost of making themselves even more susceptible to counter-espionage tools. In particular, the longer they stay connected and the more mistakes they do while trying to break through security, the higher is the chance they’ll get traced back (without even knowing it) and owner of the infrastructure will get a dynamic warp link allowing him within certain time window to warp directly upon that vessel - even if it moves from spot to spot and stays cloacked. It also has high chance to disclose personal details of perpetrator (alliance/corp/name) even without actually catching him. The owner also has an option to shut down a compromised structure remotely, preventing further leaks, though it will send a clear signal to a hacker that he is caught.

  4. It could be also allowed for such vessels to remotely hack into computer systems of stations and citadels, at even higher chance of being disclosed and caught (with corp/ally members getting additional bonuses to hacking skills and abilities to stay anonymous while at it, as they are insiders and more aware of surroundings), getting access to data that should stay unknown to most members, like balance of corp wallets and contents of secret corp hangars etc. For each successful hacking attempt a “data item” is created (thus presence of such items in some person’s belonging may sometimes identify him as a possible spy). After a lot of such items are gathered, an analysis can be made on them, providing a random piece of intel (for example, contents of some hangar at a random citadel, or what production jobs are currently set there). All those “data items” have expiration date and must be gathered in short succession. In addition, each successive hacking attempt becomes known to alliance/corp leaders, so they may try to disclose identity of the spy (that’s somebody who disappears from locals too often, have been seen flying a covops ship when he shouldn’t have had, was seen in the systems where hacking attempts did happen etc)

  5. Even when you are on one grid with somebody who decided to not be displayed in local (be it “friend” or foe), you won’t get any data regarding their identity. The only way to get this data is to spool up a special new mode of dscan, which takes some time to complete (1-3 minutes), and can’t be used if you are already targeted and are fired upon (i.e., if any kind of PvP timer is started for you). If you happen to have a cloacked friend nearby, he can do it, though, thus identifying assailant (depending on type of assailant’s vessel, it may take more than one run of this module; the smaller the ship - the more it takes (delivering a bit more data with each run, like his alliance first, then corp, then his name), even more so if ship is a covops-cloacked espionage vessel).

Additional mechanics could be added which allows you to investigate place where attack did occur and gather some clues which may give some hints on identity of perpetrator. The faster you’ll arrive at the spot, the more traces will be left there by assailants (like wreck of the victim and some of their own wrecks etc), the bigger their group was, the longer they stayed in the grid while killing the dude - the higher the chance to uncover their identities, or at least to which corp/alliance they belonged. Thus the system goes easier on a stealthy, small, highly proficient and mobile commando teams allowing them to stay under radar, while allows easily get a data on identity of huge blobs of non-cloacked ships - even after they left the grid where gank did happen (though somebody still needs to be sent there fast enough to run “investigation module” or all traces will vanish pretty soon).

If neither of those methods did work for you, you don’t have any straightforward way to know who attacked the dude now, unless the assailants decide to brag about it and will publish their killmail - yours won’t contain their identities either.

Thus age of wide-scale espionage and sabotage begins. Even if you are not a master of diplomacy and social engineering, there is still a niche for you - to be a regular low-rank hitman, shooting your allies in the hind from the shadows. Or hack into their comms behind the front lines, sharing data with your masters. Haven’t you dreamed about something like this for all your life? We all did.

1291

Eve requires an update to every aspect of scanning and intel.

But this is a huge task and it several systems need to be completely reworked to make a functional system. You can’t just take out one aspect of it.

-Local
-scanning (all aspects of it)
-cloacking

All need a fundamental rework to make a system that is better (for all gameplay styles) than what we have now.

Might as well throw away everything there is now away and start from scratch.

It is a huge rework with huge implications, but also huge potential for improving the game.

1292

Right.

Now some details:

  • hunter uses small and fast ships for tackle while doing PVE needs prey to be in big and slow ships
  • some ships never appear on d-scan (people not use them much but it will change with local chat removal)
  • some ships appear on d-scan at the last moment before cyno going up.
  • you can use d-scan while having jump-in cloak or having cloaking device on. Hunter have this bonus while prey cannot do PVE cloaked.
  • Hunter has some kind of intel: there is PVE happening in this system. Prey has no information: there are hunters around.
2 Likes
1293

One small detail: you can crit the holes in the a system and have real-time warning when someone opens new hole to you. Pretty similar to local chat if you consider that every neutral is a danger.
I remember first days of ESS when wormholers could put these on every hole and have automated warning when somebody enters the system. :grin:

1 Like
1294

Straight up. This horse ■■■■ keeps coming up, the path here is to remove afk cloaking then you can come look at local changes. If not ■■■■ off to WH space.

1295

So I think that regarding Twitch feeds.- How about forcing Twitch streams to have a delay?
As for the Local removal; keep in mind, this means you don’t see when invasion bomber fleets land until and only after using the D-scan.
And then, as for the mining comment; you know moon mining fleets are needed now and there is no longer the POS module for this. So you must be referring to the belt miners only, right?

1 Like
1296

How about just removing warp scrambling? If you have enough tank you should be able to warp out before getting blown up and you dont have to be as concerned if there is a stranger in the system.

I mean isnt the underlying problem here that people can warp in, tackle you and you have little chance to get away? Why was this mechanic implemented i wonder. Its the only MMO i know of that has this kind of functionality where a player can trap the other at will and hes got little chance to get away. Its such a fundamental problem that everything else is a workaround. For example high sec was designed to circumvent this mechanic. In reality the game would become much more interesting if warp scrambling was removed. I can actually see PVP increasing because it wont be a fight to the death everytime. You have the chance of fleeing so you can freely engage your opponent test his strength and then warp away if he has the upper hand. This goes for fleet fights as well and i dont think its a problem.

1297

Warp disruption is a necessary mechanic. without it there would be no such thing as solo pvp, and people would just blob targets to kill them quick and even then most people would get away.

I can make an effective passive regen/buffer tanked Ratting Rattlesnake with 150k effective hit points that warps in 7.5 seconds with nomad implants. With no warp disruption/scrambling you’d have to do 20,001 DPS to kill it before it warps, and that’s assuming you can start that DPS before I can initiate warp. That Rattlesnake would be effectively immortal in an EVE without warp disruption, if you didn’t change other mechanics.

Even if you did adjust other mechanics (like say, warp time increase if you are aggressed, or warp disruptors exist but only delay warp instead of prevent it) you’d still have people adapt in ways that hurt pvp (destruction) game play and that buff the hell out of ‘harvesting’ gameplay.

In other words, if you think plex prices are high now (and many do), take away warp scrambling and let me put 4-6 unkillable FoF ratting rattlesnake into space (and watch just about everyone else do it too), wait a month then see what happens to bounty generation lol.

–

I think the general assumption in a thread like this is the thing that is faulty, rather than the situation in game. The assumption made by the original poster is that there is some kind of problem that needs fixing.

There is no consideration that it might just be that the current situation is actually the best compromise that can be had, and that every other alternative (like getting rid of local, or getting rid of warp disruption, or any of the dozens of ‘bright ideas’ put forward here) would simply end up making a situation that is at least workable into some kind of unworkable mess that no one really bothers with.

Local chat in EVE is a compromise. It makes easily accessible space (K space which has gates and cynos/jump portals) and wormhole connections allowing for instantaneous travel) survivable. You can’t easily stop someone from entering space you are in in K space, but you can see them coming and run if you need to.

Wormhole space ONLY works because in developing them from scratch, CCP took away the need to compromise in the ways K space has to. Wormholes limit blobbing in various ways (no cynos), allows for defensive control of access to space (crit-ing holes) and in doing so creates defensive advantages wormholers take for granted, but that aren’t available in k space . Because they take them for granted, because they don’t understand the value of being able to limit access to their space, they almost always think that ‘no local’ is a good idea.

I tell my wormholing friends who spout the no local nonsense that I will trade them. You can have my local when I can light a cyno in your wormhole and drop 100 bombers on you within 4 seconds o lighting. So far, there have been no takers lol.

4 Likes
1298

Oh we got these topic so many time on table. This was already hard discussed when i was a new to eve.

But instat the other auto repeating topics (stop afk cloaker, stop high sec ganking, stop wardecs), where my auto answer is "nope"
i have to say, removing local has some interesting points.

Maybe without local we get kill mails of all these bots.
It open the Sandbox for the possibility of more pvp tactics.
There is no more a good reason the parse the chat. I really to like such things, in real life. That is waste of processing power and energy in it aspec. And it can become a real problem with the General Data Protection Regulation which get to effect in march 2018.
And for real. As mighty Capsulere. Capable to control every vault in my ship through my mind, during my training, implants and capsulere tecnology. I would totally firewall these communication packets, denying the login into local communication network. Even if i would brake every law in the contract of yulai with it. Just for the tactical advantage.

But (And this is a big butt [pardon})
CCP have to be very very careful here. These kind of change are likely to become a major drama in the eve community,
And there have to be some thing in replace, for many many reasons.

For example:
When you hold space, you should have the information advantage. Not just for the personal comfort zone, and money making point. Just because it’s your space. And it can’t be that modern capsulere alliance have to use walky talky, intel chat talk.

And for the more populated systems the information about the system and the capsuleres in there have to “brighter”.
For example in Trade Hubs, well populated staging system and onging major fleet battles.
Otherwise Fc’s would not catch chances for battles. Nobody likes to fight with one eye blind. But when there is enough information available, fc’s like to 3rd party for example. And we all love these massive space battles where every thing seems to shot everything.

So, yes there is a major chance to remove local, replace it with a cool game mechanic.
But there is such a giant chance to mess this up, that i don’t ccp would take it.
And now with the smaller community team, it’s even more hard for ccp to develop a local replacement system, liked by the players.

Better don’t touch it

1 Like
1299

And over-conservative attitude towards such things just will ensure the game won’t see any development at all. Before you’ll answer “and it doesn’t need it, it’s already the best!” just remember (if you can, either ask some veterans) what the game was 5 years ago, 10 years ago, may be even more. Do you honestly think it would have been for the best if everything was left frozen at that point? Such over-cautious, retrograde disposition may be as harmful as useful sometimes.

1 Like
1300

well its not over-conservative.
To remove local, ccp have to perform a real stunt.
Maybe some thing like the t3 task force. But i already explained why there is the need for some system in replace. So ccp had to handel major update software costs with a player task force.
This will not be easy, if ccp try to do this with the community.

1 Like
1301

Neither the recent null/sov mechanics’ overhaul was. It’s doable, still.

1302

The first part is the “messed up” part. If you give the locals intel superiority, this stifles exactly the content people want to see.

1303

ITT: Nullbears terrified they couldnt farm without Local intel.

1304

I don’t mint it at all, as long as it removes the 2nd most safe and easy intel gathering method - over-simplified cloacking mechanics, and afk cloacking specifically. But suddenly I see this idea opposed with passion by totally different folk. It’s more and more seems to me that a lot of l33t PvPers are terrified of getting reckted by those “terrified carebears” while they are waiting for the easiest pray they can handle in a total safety cloack gives them. They’ve become too soft and accustomed to convenience of this sorry excuse for gameplay to the point they can’t do without it. This all is indeed utterly pathetic.

1305

Removing Local from Player Sov is equitable to all sides.
-Both aggressors and defenders have to d-scan harder.
-The afk-cloak issue is arbitrary. The cloaked ship as covert issue, even if it was detectable, can just continually warp while cloaked, and continue d-scan whilst doing so.
-Cloaked cynos already exist, there are many ways to do this.
-Smaller Sov holderd can run content in cheaper ships. Larger ones, atleast further behind the front, can still do the same as now.

I understand people are resistant to change, but there isnt any real reason for Local to exist in Player Sov.

“I want to farm in my bling carrier or unsupported Rorq” really arent arguments against this.

1 Like
1306

Cloaked cynos exist… but you know the potential exists for a cloaked cyno due to local.

Without local… cloaked ships with regular cynos become very, very, very powerful. I’ll be d-scanning my butt off… oh… there’s a ship… and I’m scrammed. Quick… try to target. there’s the cyno. Still targeting… and there are 20 capital ships. And I’m dead.

People will adapt… but the adapting will likely mean a lot fewer targets that aren’t bait. Hunters will get more kills when they locate a target but it will take FOREVER to locate them.

It will shut down a lot of PVE in blingy ships in null except for the places with a huge defense fleet providing protection (which already produce the majority of ratting ticks when you look at the economic reports by region). I just don’t see this as having a positive impact for anyone really. If it makes those running PVE in null less happy, makes those hunting in null have less targets and has no impact in the areas of null that produce the vast majority of bounties because they already have the resources for full regional defense and quick response defense fleets set up… then why make the change? What’s the positive impact?

2 Likes
1307

You say that like its a bad thing.

Either watch your gates and safe up when an unknown cloaky shows up, or fly cheaper for the duration, or continue ratting/mining in your blingy ship hoping its a lost cloaky explorer or a scout with no intent to hotdrop a fleet on you.

I dont see the problem.

Surely you safe up in your bling ratter/miner when a non-cloaky red/unknown shows up in system Local, just the same anyways?

1 Like
1308

He doesn’t need to. CCP have stated their concerns several times. For example, this devblog when fighter damage was nerfed:

Quoting the specific part from CCP Larrikin:

Why:
Our primary goal for this change is reducing the combat power of Carriers & Supercarriersin PvE, specifically anomaly ratting in Nullsec. As you may have seen in the May Monthly Economy Report, there is a significant upward trend in the Money Supply. This is due to NPC Bounties.

This trend is unsustainable. Having such a large ISK faucet is bad for the economy, and this ISK faucet is concentrated to a relatively small number of players.