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157

Wow, you already posted that same link/red box, and you already got shot down for assuming I was advocating trying to get people to quit instead of merely describing it.

And your thread on it got closed.

And here you are doing it again?

Perhaps since you’re edging forum rules on this, you’d care to make a stab at answering the two posts I left you there, asking you to put up or shut up?

Because it certainly seems like you have an awful lot to say without having any idea what you’re talking about (“bitter vet” is not a synonym for “angry person who’s bad at EVE”) and without actually having any factual evidence at all of this tide of “bitter vets” trying to sabotage EVE.

PS: One quote from ganker Faylee Freir doesn’t really cut it.

158

Oh, speaking of which, that wasn’t a reading comprehension fail, it was a proofreading fail. And, I think you’re missing the larger point. You yourself admit that people are trying to sabotage the game

So, how exactly is it a witchhunt? Moreover, why am I wrong for not sitting idly by why people try to destroy things that are important to me.

Edit: and why do I need to provide factual evidence when you already agree with me. Also, you did see the other quote where another player openly admitted to personally doing it right?

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159

Wow, more reading comprehension fail. I said bitter vets could do that, and it’s not unreasonable from their viewpoint because it’s tactically more effective than your “learn to recycle piss, it’s constructive!” recommendations.

Having played the game well over twice as long as you (you didn’t even join until years after the primary actual ‘bitter vet’ issues), I’ve known maybe three, count them 3, players who go out of their way to discourage people from playing EVE. Three.

Now you’re trying to start a smear campaign calling everyone who disses EVE/CCP a “bitter vet” and conflating that with every sort of “I’m bad at EVE” behaviour.

Yes, bitter vetting is pointless and counterproductive. It achieves nothing useful that I can see. It makes more sense to suggest ways the game can be better, even if making such suggestions is equally pointless given CCP’s attitude towards players.

You need to provide factual evidence because you’re mounting a smear campaign in multiple posts and threads for over a month now.

What you’re doing is the same kind of ignorant behavior that leads to prejudice, to profiling, to polarizing factions, to shutting down and silencing people with legitimate complaints because you’ve crafted a smear label you can stick on them so you and your ganker cronies can jeer at them.

It’s at least as, if not far more damaging to the community, as anything “bitter vets” are doing. Especially since you have only one quote from a ganker to base it on.

That’s what I’m asking you to put up about. But so far, you haven’t got even a shred of a factual basis for your rant. Only a wave of toxic prejudice you’re trying your hardest to spread everywhere.

I can provide the links of you doing this. Let’s see if you can do the same for your plague of “bitter vets”.

Edit: also, on second readthrough, “I’m running a smear campaign to stick a label on everyone who’s views I want to dismiss. Why should I need factual evidence for that?” honestly says everything anybody needs to know about your efforts here.

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160

I just don’t understand. You admit that there are at least some people out there who are actively sabotaging the game. But say that I’m out of line for trying to fight against them.

Of course, I imagine that part of our disagreement stems from the fact that I believe that the problem is much more widespread than you do, and that you don’t have to be intentionally trying to sabotage the game and the community to be having that effect. Case in point, I wasn’t trying to make people quit when I made that outrage video, but I sure got a lot of comments from people saying that my video was the final straw, and that they were quitting.

And yes, I’d love to post those comments, but unfortunately all the comments were obliterated when I made the video private, and I didn’t have the foresight to try to save them. Hopefully, however, you’ll believe that I’m telling the truth. I mean, it was literally the catalyst that started my change from bitter to better vet.

And, I sound like a broken record here, but having a complaint doesn’t make you a bitter vet. It’s your attitude and behavior that determines that. Got constructive feed back? Great! Give it. Have a complaint? Me too. In fact, I’ve got several. Moreover, I think other people have a lot of valid complaints which I sympathize with. So, I support them through comments and likes.

Also, if I post a bitter vet meme at no one in particular, and people decide to post claiming that I misrepresented them, doesn’t that mean that they’ve classified themselves as a bitter vet? I mean, I didn’t accuse anyone of being a bitter vet with that meme. Must be some reason people felt compelled to defend themselves.

Oh, and this is interesting, I didn’t even consider you to be a bitter vet until your first post arguing with me about all of this. I was kind of blindsided by it, because I had a different impression of you.

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161

Finally, I may not be able to provide you with a mountain of evidence that bitter vets are sabotaging the game and the community. I didn’t think that I’d have to prove it until talking with you. So, I haven’t been saving posts or recording comms. However, I do honestly believe it. I’m sure you think I’ve made an error in judgement, but hopefully you believe me when I say that I’m trying to fight for something that I care about.

162

Wow, you are clueless.

For the record, if someone starts a smear campaign against a group, and uses a really broad set of definitions that basically allows them to include everyone they disagree with or disapprove of in it, and someone reacts to that saying “This is wrong”, it doesn’t automatically make them a member of that group.

Unless of course, your goal is to spread the smear.

Joe McCarthy would have loved to have you on his staff.

163

I hope you have a good day. I think I’m going to go do something more enjoyable with my time.

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164

I’ll get behind that when I see you trying to distinguish between “bitter vets” and “everyone who’s bad at and complains about EVE”. Basically, when you’re addressing toxic behavior without trying to stick an all-inclusive label on a group of players with legitimate concerns that predate your entry into the game.

Also, perhaps when you stop trying to paint the picture that bitter vets, in general, are trying to sabotage EVE rather than simply being angry and frustrated and expressing resentment at changes that impacted their gameplay. (Because many bitter vets are in fact, still here, still playing, and still supporting CCP/EVE. Despite their bitterness.)

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165

Have you even read anything he has written? He has said multiple times that in the majority of cases he doesn’t think it’s intentional. Just I’ll considered.

You are going off the deep end based on what you think he is saying when it’s quite clear from both your responses that you are talking at cross purposes.

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166

No. His goal is not to discuss, but to pollute the player base and the forum because he wants to harm CCP . That’s spite.

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167

With every post like that, you’re proving his point more and more. AND you’re part of the reason his thread got locked.

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168

Sorry but you’re laboring under a misconception here. “You are clueless” ie. “you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about” is a fact in this case, not a slur.

First, he’s confusing the term “bitter vet” with anyone complaining about EVE or CCP.

Second, he tries to mix in all sorts of “bad at EVE” behaviors with the term “bitter vet” when many of them have nothing at all to do with either being a vet or bitter.

Third, he’s on this crusade against bitter vets poisoning “the community” against EVE without anything to back it up.

Fourth, he hasn’t even been around long enough to know where “bitter vets” came from.

Fifth, the thing I called him “clueless” about was at least the third time he leapt to an unwarranted conclusion based on something I said. In this case, that because I objected to his incorrect usage of the term and his attempts to make it into a general smear label, that makes me a bitter vet.

Lastly, his thread was a toxic slur against people posting their opinions in the forums, and rightly should have been locked as soon as it was posted. My replies in that thread are factual, evidence based, include actual definitions based on historical usage, and simply ask Shipwreck to back up his claims with evidence.

I call a spade a spade. (Which apparently isn’t PC anymore, because literally thousands of years after the phrase was invented, “spade” became a racial slur (Call a spade a spade - Wikipedia).

When someone makes up “facts” out of whole cloth to support their argument, I call them on it and link real facts. That’s why Destiny avoids me and pretends not to read my posts.

When someone does something foolish, I call them a fool and outline why. I don’t just resort to “hur durr wtf you got pwnzord ROFLMAO” trolling like some frequent posters do.

And when those same people post something reasonable, I give them a like and treat that individual post with the respect it deserves. Because it’s a forum for posting and evaluating the quality of the posts, not a substitute-battleground for people who can’t get their conflict-jollies in the game.

People take criticism as vicious personal attacks these days, it seems. It isn’t. It’s a wake-up call to review your thoughts.

Ship’s thread got locked because it was about attacking members of the community based on virtually no evidence, I’d guess. Me asking for facts to support his viewpoint isn’t the reason for it.

169

No he is not. He is being very clear that legitimate complaints and constructive criticism are needed and welcomed.

YOU are wrongly conflating the two.

And as for the rest of your post. It’s just plain unreasonable.

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170

I bet not, I bet it got locked because the “discussion” over it got out of hand. Which you were a big part of (like the biggest).

What? You think your rabid, overly aggressive and fanatic slabs of rage aren’t problematic?

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171

It always takes two to tango…

It’s easy to point out actions of others when they resemble your own…

172

To a degree sure but one “side” was fanatic, aggressive and personal. The other was not.

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173

See, people have this weird thing they do where they pretend “if I say a thing, then it is true!”

And I get a lot of people upset when I reply with “please provide a link or a reference or a fact to support your statement”.

So when I say “Shipwreck is trying to label complainers as bitter vets without regard to the meaning of bitter, or vet, or the historical usage of “bitter vet” within the context of EVE”, I don’t just make it up and say it, I can prove it. Which is more than I can say for your take on Shipwreck’s “supportive of criticism”.

Thread about declining player numbers, Shipwreck responds by labelling it a bitter vet problem. Neither the poster, nor the PCU problem and changes being referred to are at all bitter vet related. Shipwreck is just pasting his agenda onto it. (Post #22 and subsequent)

Thread about excessive multi-boxing and botting. Poster is a relatively new pilot. Post #5, Shipwreck Jones says it’s bitter vets striking again.

Complaint about mining changes. Poster predicts decline in player numbers as a result. The pilot is about 2 years into game. Post #6, Shipwreck Jones “prays all bitter vets quit the game and stop poisoning morale”.

I can literally go on with dozens of these. There’s no real point. Etch Masuka isn’t even 2 years into game yet and doesn’t have the slightest clue what actual “bitter vet” issues are about.

But, apparently according Aisha, this set of actual, demonstrable facts is merely another aggressive fanatic slab of rage. So I guess I’ll wrap it up there instead of linking 10 more.

(PS: as an aside, I don’t think most complaint threads are all that valid, though they might have some useful points here and there. I think a lot of people are whiny and lazy and don’t want to do the work needed to play EVE. Which just means EVE is not for them, it doesn’t mean they’re a “bitter vet, poisoning the morale of players, who need to quit”.)

174

You just posted a slab of rage. We’re talking about a single thread and you can’t even contain yourself enough to keep it to posts within that single thread. Do you actually READ the stuff you write?

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175

Nah, ain’t nobody got time for that ■■■■.

176

How long do I have to be in game to be able to voice an opinion?

I may not be privy to the origins of “bitter vet” in the context of eve. But I sure as hell can recognise what the general population would consider bitter vet behaviour. And what I’ve quoted above is it to perfection.

“Shut up newbie. You have no business commenting on my game”

Perhaps you are being so vocal on this issue because you recognise a bit too much of your own behaviour being called out and don’t like it?

Stuff like this is absolutely toxic

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