“This is the first time Elliot McElhone has posted to the Eve Forums”
CCP: this is a retarded change and will only further dis-incentivise nullsec campaigns.
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Of course it is going to work out fine. With fewer people doing things to make more things happen. This going to turn out just as fine as many other things CCP has done in recent years. Considering Tipa’s rather light-headed ideas about JFing, I doubt she is a reliable oracle for changes. In contrast to what she suggest, it will turn out like the change with Containers: Nothing but hubs will have them and you will have to move around to get something so useless. Or look at her last comment: Stations in low sec do not always have a factory service either.
And you know what’s also great? Which T1 industrial should I train? If I have trained the “wrong” industrial and the one that I trained is not seeded by some mystical trader in the exact station where I am, I have to wait or move my own anyway. This change is getting better and better by the minute.
The T1 industrials literally take 10 minutes to train to level 1 and e skill can be bought for next to nothing remotely.
Again, change is hard. If you were building a game up from scratch this modest requirement would be considered perfectly reasonable. It’s only an issue because people are used to something else.
Those are the kinda changes that quickly become the new normal and people won’t remember it any other way in a year. And if not, CCP can always revert it.
They take a wee bit longer if you have to move them and want to benefit from their bonuses to have better chance of survival. You are just simplifying things like Tipa.
Correct, and this change doesn’t make them less safe, but it makes using them far more annoying. Keep in mind as I and others have already stated multiple times, not every JF pilot hauls static routes where it is feasible to stock T1 industrials.
Contract haulers fly their cynos all over the place. I’ve had days in the past where I flew cyno alts easily hundreds of jumps in a day. Not only is that could be be far more annoying as industrials are way slower, they are going to be annoyingly harder to get to the destination to begin with.
Is this better gameplay? It far more annoying gameplay.
Comparing the hull cost doesn’t do anything. It is in operating costs. Again as a contract hauler I’m going to lose more cyno ships just getting to the destination, since flying a T1 indy into LS is close to suicide. In addition I will take a noticable hit carrying spare cyno ships in the JF which cuts into what I can actually haul.
Honestly I think the covert option would have had a greater chance for more risk. You know there will be JF pilots thinking it would be safer using a safe vs lighting on station. hunters with good scanners have a greater chance to scan the JF and catching it out in space. (just as an example).
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I was really looking forward to JFs using covert cynos. I realize there was a significant investment in skillpoints to use covert cynos on covert ships, but the benefits were significant enough to make the skilling worth it. A covert ship lighting a covert cyno is a short duration action that’s low-key (not broadcast to the entire system). This improves the survival of the ship. What’s more, covert ships typically have good mobility for moving from system to system. Add onto the general use of covert ships, and this means these cyno alts have value above and beyond their primary cyno-lighting purpose.
The industrial cyno doesn’t have any of these benefits. So why limit the industrial cyno to ship hulls at all? Seriously, the industrial cyno is a system-wide alert beacon designed to be used on an inconvenient throw-away ship rather than a convenient throw away ship. A t1 industrial ship is typically ill-suited for flying around null/low, and they require significant cargo space when packaged. So enabling them to light a cyno is a half-ass solution to the problem of letting low SP characters participate in logistic chains. What’s more, Vigil fleets will now be defanged, and easy pickings for the first pirate that wants to pad their killboard rather than respect the vigil.
Personally, I’d like to see JF’s able to use the covert cyno. It would certainly improve the ability of small groups to settle more distant areas of nullsec, as they don’t have the support network to provide logistics through easy-mode citadel hopping.
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To be fair i have to agree with half-baked idea.
If it was me i would just keep the current cyno mechanics in place call it light cyno / cyno and only jump freighter / maybe rorq. I say maybe rorq because at present its quite a powerful ship with its ability’s. I am not sure on its actual dps in seige but immune for x amount time etc is quite powerful in terms of engagement with small fleets / solo pvp.
As for rest of the capital’s call it heavy cyno can be fitted to recons and blackops but as people have said in here the t2 resists on some of the recons need to be addressed. That should reduce the capital blob but not limit logistics.
As it stands current idea regarding freighters with industrial cyno just sounds completely out their not in the norm for eve and the idea covert opts just too easy if it is indeed with current mechanics with covert cyno.
This is a problem related to tethering and jump immunity, They still die to people pulling ACL changes, bumping on landing, ect when jumping. And it’s this way for a reason.
It’s a ship with 0 defensive and offensive abilities. And even with that they still die even though player activity is low. Yet still people clamor for easier kills. It’s sad.
Kills for reference: https://zkillboard.com/group/902/
If they didn’t die at all, then sure, but there’s no reason to make the JF pilots lives any harder just because.
As I mentioned above this doesn’t even change the relative safety or otherwise of jump freighters. All it does is make getting a cyno into place slower and more annoying.
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You mean a day each? Also all what you need is an improved cloak and MWD to travel safely in lowsex. Also indus warp much faster than noob ships and pods.
You all seem to be stressed with leaving your easy mode logistics comfort zone.
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33% faster, 3x slower align. And the MWD cloak trick is far from perfect. It also actually increases your align as you have the MDW cycle with default is 10seconds.
It isn’t stress it is annoyance. I mean popping mostly unfit indy’s in LS camps is content, but is it really good content?
I mean I get that some feel JF are too safe. At the same time those JF essentially give all the PVP’ers the ships they want to fly for the really good content. Sure a JF killmail is a nice juicy thing to look at. Sometimes it also means a bunch of ppl may not fly that day cause their replacement ships didn’t make it.
Hauling in general isn’t the most fun content. It is a necessary evil. I would be willing to bed most pilots just want to get it done so they can go onto more fun EVE content. But sure let’s make it not less safe, but take longer and more tedious…
Put some inertial stabs in your lows of the Wreathe for example, rest with warp stabs. Also you don’t need the cloak in case there is nobody camping.
So jump freighter pilots, being required to use a very unique item to move their ship doesn’t change their safety?
Any losses of these ships with said items upon them is a everlasting beacon that says there’s a JF here. It’s one check of a system or characters killboard.
Anyone seeing an indy ship sitting outside of a station/citadel is able to almost automatically assume there’s something JF related to it nearby.
Let me quote the direct reasoning given as to why this change was made:
Affordable? Sure, but why make it an indy ship requirement? Why not as before?
A beacon that appears on in the overview and on the map is the real telling line. You could still have this option with any ship, so why limit it to indy ships?
This is just blatant pandering from CCP.
More options, more players, more things happen in game.
Give the jump freighter pilots back their covert options.
You’ve clearly never gone through a proper gatecamp then.
Come by ours sometime, the cloak won’t save you, nor will warp cores.
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Sure, but not in a T1 hauler of course 
Anyway, the trick is to not run into a camp when seeding your ships.
And you seem to be in need of cheap killmarks. Defending a not at all thought through change with no positive impact on the activity … Outstanding move.
Cool, so now I need a scout for the cyno, too. Yet another character. And here I thought people were fed up with Alts Online.
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8 minutes too long.
CCP say they want balance, they want destruction, they want an active vibrant game - Yet everything they have done for the last 5 years says - They don’t.,.
This change is simply the next in a long line of poor design decisions by CCP that will see things only get worse.,.
CCP knows in the current meta they are forcing - Cov ops will be even more OP than ever before - They clearly don’t want JF’s in that class.
You mean you want all JF pilots to use well known specific routes that are well stocked with specific ships and modules for guaranteed killmails.
You sound just ike CCP, only they can’t come out and say - This is all about getting JF’s killed like you seem to be doing.,.
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Still gonna be slower and more tedious. Oh and now I’ll need a second alt to scout my cyno through? Sure cause that will make it more fun but not tedious.
No not really. If done right lighting a cyno on a station and docking is nearly risk free. Undocking and jumping to another cyno if done right is near risk free. The only time there is a bit more risk generally is that last warp to the HS gate. None of that changes with an indy cyno.
You clearly haven’t read any of my posts, at least not fully. Not every JF situation is a static route where you can easily seed ships. Contract haulers for example are making deliveries all over the place. As I’ve already mentioned probably 3 times when hauling for push I could easily fly cyno alts well in excess of 300 jumps daily.
This doesn’t make for any better content. My JF will be just as safe. It will just make the whole process take longer, more tedious, and more expensive. But that will just get passed to the elite LS and 0.0 PVP’ers waiting for their ships. 
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I’m looking at 1,500 isk extra per m3, to cover my time and losses. That’s of course only if I decide to keep my JF after the change.
I feel for those doing JF’s with PushX and Black Frog - Their lives will be a nightmare of personal logistics - Eve Devs do like to find ways to force players to spend more time doing the same things they’ve done for years.
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This 2nd change changes nothing about the safety of the JF. It’s exactly the same as before. It’s only the cyno generating ship that will die way more often now, en route.
They should have kept the JF > Covert Cyno change, as most of us are pissed at the SP we spent for it. They should have added a “Vigil beacon” mod instead of a “industrial” version. With the same visual effect, but cheap with low skill requirements - and usable in Highsec.
Everyone would have been happy. Boring logistics would still be acceptably doable, nullsec markets and deliveries would still get seeded properly and promptly, vigils would be even more possible and accessible, and large scale Rorqual krabbing and fast/large scale Capital escalations would still be nerfed. That was the original goal after all.
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