As one of the co-founders of Black Frog, you’re quite right. Although to be honest, I think it will just mean I can’t be bothered to do the same things I’ve done for years. The work needed to enable delivering goods to any system in New Eden by seeding t1 industrials isn’t enjoyable, nor would we be able to charge for the time and ISK expenditure to set it up and be able to recoup costs as the cost of logistics would be prohibitive.
I don’t need the ISK - I do logistics for others to help them and because it’s an enjoyable pastime. Moving t1 industrials around New Eden removes any enjoyment from logistics, so I’ll probably just hang up my keys and leave it to people to do themselves.
My guess is that the end result of these changes will be that small corporation will lose the ability to get help to move to nullsec or be resupplied in nullsec, as it will be too expensive to contemplate a freight service and the number of pilots willing to help others in this endeavour will fall off a cliff.
I’m going to guess you haven’t ever hauled for a contract hauler such as Black frog or Pushx? Nor have you comprehended what has been said about these scenarios.
These contracts go all over the place. It is not feasible nor is it cost effective to seed cyno ships in most cases, even before these changes.
What’s really needed is the restoration of options for jump freighters:
Industrial cyno
Pros: cheap, low skill, low risk lighting on a structure
Cons: difficult to seed
Covert cyno
Pros: easy to seed
Cons: expensive, high skill investment
What had me excited, after overcoming my initial shock to the original planned changes, was the introduction of risk/reward for the cyno ship for the first time. It gave options… light on a structure for low risk jumps, in exchange for risking 40+m isk losses. Or take the higher risk option of lighting at a mid, potentially saving the 40m+ isk loss, in exchange for a risk that someone will probe you down and catch the jump freighter. I was imagining JF hunters salivating at the prospect, introducing a new method to catching careless pilots - especially since many mids would be reused and I could imagine them being cloaky camped.
For the very first time we’d effectively be introducing a risk into jump freightering, rather than simply lighting Cynos on structures to result in almost infallible safety. Surely that’s the spirit of Eve. And in recognition of low skill point pilots, allowing the much cheaper but more cumbersome t1 industrial option, but allowing a much more expensive but highly specialised alternative. Risk / reward balance on the way to restoration.
The change, as currently proposed, will likely kill all but standard logistics routes. Which is fine to fly into Delve, for example, with limited NPC stations, but totally impractical for a region like Stain. Large alliance logistics will continue practically unchanged, but if you’re in a small corporation or solo then it screws your logistic options. I like to see all play styles supported, but this change affects everyone not engaging in the large alliance play style, and therefore needs to be reconsidered.
So a unique JF only cyno doesn’t change their safety? Bollocks.
Right now, if you lose a cyno ship no one really knows what it was for. Could be for rorq, or carrier, or even dread/super/titan.
But indy cyno? Only for JF. That draws attention, very specific attention
This is a very poor change IMHO. CCP are essentially holding a gun to my head and demanding I plex another account so I can have a force recon on grid with my cap to light a cyno (that they used to be able to light themselves). Very cynical.
Once again you introducing changes that will hit smaller groups hardest! The big teams can deal with this but not small teams. Thank you for a GOON, LEGACY, HORDE … recruitment program.
Well, after 6 years this is enough for me. 4 accounts unsubbed. I just spent isk injecting and multiple character training cyno alts for the anticipated cyno changes. I had thought I would need cyno alts in coverts. Now, the time training and expense paid has been wasted.
CCP announced this change would be coming in September, leaving just enough time to train skills. Now, they change direction with September almost here. Enough. They don’t seem to know their own game, and didn’t seek advice before posting these changes would happen, resulting in people scrambling to train skills in time. For nothing.
Very well summarized. Personally I would have liked to see the covops option to be tried out. Not thinking it through to the end is typical for CCP unfortunately.
The more bold move though would have been the removal of non-covops cynos from the game.
Big teams of Carriers & Rorqs will have to be in the same system to look after each other. Not a biggy.
Solo-moving a carrier is gonna get really expensive. Paper-tank is paper-tank.
Ore will continue to flow. With all the Capitals in the same system I doubt you’ll be losing many hulls either, as one warp and you’re rescuing a team-mate ( unlike the complexities of getting a cyno on grid now with cyno inhibs ).
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So, small teams or solos will die. Big teams will survive. So Null will have to reconfigure.
I still think controlling the supply of Ore will get a better result when it comes to dealing with the EVE Null Ore Mountains.
As for the ISK surplus that is why you should have Concord charge ISK for restoring Local.
Coincidentally and conveniently we also have the luck of being able to enjoy a 15% discount on injector sales…noooo we do not get milked at all here, it just might feel like that.
So… Rorqual is completely dead now as any kind of a hauler, unless you are simply taking some barges/exhumers with you to the belt. Or you can spend 500 mil for each cyno alt to be able to use the Rorqual jumping to the T1 cyno.
Of course it would - Removing the ability to get around New Eden for anything other than cov-ops (which are now well out of balance with everything else) would surely fix the issues of a stagnant Nul sec.
I hear there are these things called gates, spend some time in highsec, you’ll remember how to use them.
Just like everyone had to in the old days of EVE before jump gates.
Of course, moving a Super / Titan fleet plus subcap support 40+ jumps to try and stage for a fight is something that is streamlined and will encourage the largest groups to fight each other.
Of course i imagine, killing structures and taking sov will be much easier without cynos and will for sure encourage more conflict in nul.
Man you are just too good at this game, you know far more than me about logistics and the way Nulsec plays the game. I give up, you win.
I know this is late but I haven’t checked back here in a bit.
I chose my words carefully. It’s why I said largely instead of “completely” or “all” the player-base’s fault. CCP is absolutely at fault here as well.
I said way way way back in 2009 that super capitals were a mistake. EVE player sentiment generally runs something along the lines of “pay for performance”, which is fair enough. But it meant the push to turn supers into something combat effective and, in fact, devastating was NEVER going to end until it was delivered. I’ve been playing long enough to remember when CCP’s attitude towards supers was more akin to calling them a status symbol and if you didn’t like that don’t waste your resources on them.
CCP eventually caved, of course, and now we have the problem everyone knew we were going to get. Regular capitals were expensive enough compared to battleships and were highly effective at taking down structures and yet were vulnerable to medium to large gangs (10-20 subcaps), possibly even less. Dreads and Carriers were perfectly effective against other caps as well. With those available there was no need of supers. If jump bridging, clone vats or whatever were desirable they could have easily gone on ships designed expressly for that purpose at considerably less cost.
Now the extreme cost of supers (relative to any other ship) combined with the “pay for performance” motto means we have the ludicrously overpowered ISK printers and ship destroyers that we do because that’s what the price tag demands. Supers were a mistake from day 1.
The player fault lies in using them far too often against ships that are not a threat to their empire and are just a minor nuisance like a solo pvp ship or a small gang. Crushing them with overwhelming force is a good way to get them to never come back but it is not at all clear that doing so is healthy for the game overall, especially as supers continue to proliferate. It strangles out a good portion of content some of us really like (solo/small gang), who are already putting themselves at a disadvantage by coming to your space where all your assets are. Bottom line is whenever game devs present you with literally hundreds of potential options for dealing with problems x,y and z and the player base always resorts to the same solution in nearly every situation…nerfs will always be incoming sooner or later.
