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[Etch_Masuka]

Renly Rohan. Ive seen you make these arguments in other threads a couple of times in the last week and i honesly cant work out if you actually belive what you are saying or if you are just trolling. Im leaning towards trolling.

Being ganked sucks sure. Losing a ship whatever the value isnt nice but the whole economy of eve is built on destruction. Ganking and other PVP content means the mining and exploration i do generates an income. As there is constant demand for mats, datacores and salavage. SO the solution to the ganking problem (which isnt the problem you think it is) can never be stop ganking as that effectively kills the economy and kills eve.

As for changing the name of highsec because its misleading… When you buy a hulk for mining do you expect it to be green and look like Mark Ruffalo? NO SPACE IS SAFE. put your energy into educating new bros about how to stay safe. teach them that ships are ammo not prized possessions. Its not difficult.

As for CCP’s involvement in all of this. Did anyone see the interviews on Talking in Stations last Sunday i think it was? A few things stood out to me in that interview that are relavnmt here and kind of undermine some of the things being said/asserted/claimed by folks.

1). CCP are actively looking for new players in game that have suffered a lose to a gate camp/gank squad and the gm’s are making contact. They are doing so from the point of view of saying “hi do you understand what happened and why it happened,” providing some ships and modules to get the player up and running again as well as providing advice on how to avoid the same in the future. I think this is great. Hopefully it improves player retention.

2). Ongoing studies into new player behaviour etc are showing evidence that players who suffer a signifcant loss early in their eve careers are more likely to continue with the game than players who do not. Yes you read that right. Didnt compute for me either but this is what was being suggested. If so that relaly flies in the face of a lot of the anti ganking arguments. It suggests that players who get an early understanding of dealing with loss in game are more likely to engage with the content long term.

Now i cant speak to the accuracy of the above beyond the fact that reps from CCP were talking about it. I see point 1 as being an awesome thing to be happening and point 2 as being really really interesting.

But either way stopping breaks the whole economy. Deal with it and put the energy into something else.

[Renly_Rohan]

@Karak_Terrel

If you don’t want to lose your stuff then learn how the game works and you are fine.

Sounds like a bully who wants your lunch money to me. All you gotta do is get off the bus before me and run to the hallway outside the principal’s office and you will be fine.

Yes it is a game to the bully. Its not the bullied.

I liked your earlier suggestion better: play a different game. I suppose we could correct that to: play an ACTUAL game.

[Renly_Rohan]

@Etch_Masuka

i honesly cant work out if you actually belive what you are saying or if you are just trolling. Im leaning towards trolling.

If so, there is clearly no point reading your post. To think I am trolling means you are simply unreachable. Have a nice life pal.

[Karak_Terrel]

@Renly_Rohan

Sounds like a bully who wants your lunch money to me. All you gotta do is get off the bus before me and run to the hallway outside the principal’s office and you will be fine.

Yes it is a game to the bully. Its not the bullied.

You just have a really hard time separating RL form a computer game do you? What happens in EVE is always part of a computer game, and everyone plays by the same rules. Start to take responsibility for your own decisions and don’t blame your loses on others.

@Renly_Rohan

I liked your earlier suggestion better: play a different game. I suppose we could correct that to: play an ACTUAL game.

EVE is a perfectly fine computer game. It has some elements that are questionable, like for example mining and PvE, I don’t see how people can enjoy that. Ganking those people is truly an act of mercy.

[Renly_Rohan]

@Karak_Terrel

You just have a really hard time separating RL form a computer game do you?

Yes and no. I have few issues when its between human and computer. That is almost a pure computer game, but the game was designed by humans. Also people are using their real life time and real life money to play it. Imagine if someone made a game advertised to take months to complete…and people played for months…but the game was set up to intentionally crash just before you could. I can imagine real arson would be the result. Maybe even a murder. Thankfully, that sort of thing will probably never happen.

But when its between human and not only human designers but also other human players, including designers who are players, and with open lines of communication, well it all changes radically. The actual problem here is your refusal to admit the real life aspects at play here. But as one of the bullies that’s not really a surprise.

Admit it to yourself, or not, to others or not, the fact is that players are building very real social, financial, and emotional ties to players and items here. And some players are getting very big kicks causing very real damage to those things. The very real psycological pain caused is called “salt” and its the subject of a lot of conversations.

But I will just say this again, as useless as it is to repeat myself: I don’t want to stop it all. I want the situation to either be made clearer to players and/or a completely safe area of space to be created for those who want to play unmolested. (That safe area need not be profitable).

[Algathas]

@Renly_Rohan

a completely safe area of space to be created for those who want to play unmolested.

They have such a thing: test server. You will be unmolested, ISK and items are worthless, completely safe.

[Solonius_Rex]

@Renly_Rohan

It stands for player versus player. It doesn’t stand for “gank defenseless victims”.

I dont understand. Is the victim, not a player? Is it a bot?

@Renly_Rohan

What you are insisting is PVP is like if I kicked your grandma in the stomach as she is shopping, grab her diamond ring and say I won the “fight”.

If my Grandma walked outside to go grocery shopping during The Purge, with full knowledge of being told what the Purge is, then yes, it is her fault, and it was a fight.

@Renly_Rohan

2 catalysts on a mackinaw is NOT “a fight”. Its a massacre. Heck, I think one is usually a massacre as well.

Mackinaws dont have drones? They cannot fight back? They cannot win or destroy anything?

@Renly_Rohan

Generally, they won’t. They will enter a one-sided bashing. Please don’t act like this has never happened. It has. So by your logic, I guess they should expect it.

No, by my logic, they shouldnt expect it, because they didnt consent to it.

I dont consent to being shot in real life.

I know it happens. People get shot in real life, and die, all the time.

But I do not consent to it, and therefore i do not expect it to happen.

I do consent to being shot in Call of Duty. Because thats how the game works. Therefore, I should expect it to happen, a lot.

Thats my logic.

@Renly_Rohan

Yes, I know that. My problem is that the lies and bamboozlement are in fact, real life. This needs fixed. Players need to be more clearly informed of exactly what they are getting into.

Aura informs you of this, the very first time you undock:

Not to mention, the forums, the interaction, rookie chat, everywhere you go, players will inform you of the nature of EVE.

The fact that a huge red pop-up that states “THERE IS A SMALL CHANCE OF YOU LOSING YOUR SHIP TO GANKERS IN HISEC BE ADVISED” every time you log in for the first 30 days doesnt come up, doesnt mean players arent informed. Most are. The OP of this thread, was.

@Renly_Rohan

Look at it this way. You invite someone to play a game of chess. You intend to throw the chessboard across the room if it looks like you are about to lose. You don’t say that. Later, you hurl the chessboard across the room because you are losing. The other person will very likely be mad at you. You can chant “Its just a game!” as much as you like, but that won’t fix the issue and rightly so.

If someone says “Lets play “Russian” chess, where anything can happen”, and you say okay, then yes, you were informed.

The problem here, is that most players who play EVE, arent playing this as their first game, ever. They understand what PVP is, they understand what PVE is. They understand that this game includes PVP, and there is only one server. And not a single new player has ever stated, so far, that they believe it is against the games rules to PVP in hisec.

All the new players ive ever seen, here on this forums for the 8 years ive been here, all know that EVE is a PVP game and that PVP can occur anywhere. Not a single one has had a mistaken understanding that Hisec cannot have PVP.

They may not like it when it happens to them, but they know it happens.

@Renly_Rohan

Useless crap paragraph that is representive of literally no one and nothing.

Youve just demonstrated how your original paragraph was useless crap that is representative of literally no one and nothing. Thanks.

@Renly_Rohan

In the past EVE was more upfront and clear. Was. Past tense. Thanks for pointing that out.

How so? Could you provide evidence?

[Solonius_Rex]

@Karak_Terrel

You just have a really hard time separating RL form a computer game do you? What happens in EVE is always part of a computer game, and everyone plays by the same rules. Start to take responsibility for your own decisions and don’t blame your loses on others.

He likes to conflate reality with video games because he doesnt have a leg to stand on.

Yes, shooting random people in real life will get you arrested and jailed, probably for life.

No, shooting random players in Call of Duty will not get you arrested and nothing will happen to you.

That is why Call of Duty is a bad game because all i want to do is enjoy the graphics and the scenery but other players keep shooting and killing me. Activision never told me that other players will shoot at me in this game.

This is basically his argument.

[Aiko_Danuja]

He’s salty because he lost his mining Gnosis, years ago. There’s only two possibilities: either he made a mistake, or the game is fundamentally flawed. The first option is impossible, as Renly is perfect in every way, and therefore the game is broken.

[Solonius_Rex]

@Renly_Rohan

But I will just say this again, as useless as it is to repeat myself: I don’t want to stop it all. I want the situation to either be made clearer to players

Are you aware that Activision doesnt specifically state, in almost any of their call of duty games, that you will be shot at by other players? It doesnt show up in the game. It doesnt show up in the adverts.

And yet, you would agree, that almost no one goes into it expecting not to get shot at, right?

@Renly_Rohan

and/or a completely safe area of space to be created for those who want to play unmolested. (That safe area need not be profitable).

What sort of activity would be permitted in this safe space? If the space is not going to be profitable, what else is there to do?

[Adunh_Slavy]

@Gretek_Moergyn

What SHOULD happen is the loss of the character’s ship AND the deletion of the character. Then you can say Eve is realistic. Right now there are no real consequences.

Um, no. Sending them off to low sec, and making faction police more aggressive against them in high sec, would be more realistic.

[Jenn_aSide]

And here you hit on the true reason for these complaints.

They don’t just want to play the game unmolested. Like you suggest, if they wanted that they would just play on Sisi.

What they really want is the advantage of total safety while still being able to play with and have an effect on other players.

People figured this out a long time ago. One poster proposed an “observer mode” where you could fly around high sec and see everyone and they could see you and you could still do all the pve but for no isk or LP or anything . NONE of the anti ganker folks supported tye idea at all.

In other words, they want to have their space cake and eat it too.

[Solonius_Rex]

@Jenn_aSide

People figured this out a long time ago. One poster proposed an “observer mode” where you could fly around high sec and see everyone and they could see you and you could still do all the pve but for no isk or LP or anything . NONE of the anti ganker folks supported tye idea at all.

And yet he says:

@Renly_Rohan

a completely safe area of space to be created for those who want to play unmolested. (That safe area need not be profitable).

Its like, are you kidding me? What activity exists that isnt profitable that people would want to do??? Whats the point in activities if you dont get profit out of them? Do you seriously think new players will want to do meaningless tasks that involve no gain whatsoever and just exist to kill time?

[Erick_Jakuard]

@Solonius_Rex

Its like, are you kidding me? What activity exists that isnt profitable that people would want to do???

I meant “relatively” profitable. Not zero. I also meant directly profitable. So while you could argue that hauling through a completely safe high sec would be profitable, it would not be DIRECTLY profitable.

I am thinking of things like…price caps. I think I mentioned those before. You could sell your wares in totally safe space but the real profits would be where the prices are not capped…and that would be medium sec and beyond.

And BTW, new players and some others are not as ISK profit minded as you might imagine. But whether I am right or wrong it hardly matters. All people will have to do to play EVE as it is now is “undock” from my proposed high security area. What’s the fuss?

[Solonius_Rex]

@Erick_Jakuard

I meant “relatively” profitable. Not zero.

How much is relatively?

@Erick_Jakuard

I am thinking of things like…price caps. I think I mentioned those before. You could sell your wares in totally safe space but the real profits would be where the prices are not capped…and that would be medium sec and beyond.

How do you place price caps on things that are priced and controlled and changed by players? You do know that there isnt a static, base price on the majority of items that are not seeded by NPCs, right?

@Erick_Jakuard

And BTW, new players and some others are not as ISK profit minded as you might imagine.

And yet if there is a common question asked by new players, it is always “How do I make ISK?”

@Erick_Jakuard

All people will have to do to play EVE as it is now is “undock” from my proposed high security area. What’s the fuss?

The fuss here is that youre going to introduce a stupid, meaningless and broken mechanic.

You arent the first person who proposed a “Safe” space where players can move and be active in complete safety. Problem is, any method of making isk will be exploited fully by more veteran players and new players will not stand a chance.

Guess what I see every time i enter 1.0 starter systems? Mackinaws sucking up Veldspar. Because its the safest, easiest place to do so.

The first thing new players will see is veteran players and bots populating these areas, sucking up all the resources and leaving nothing for them.

Your idea is bad.

[Erick_Jakuard]

@Solonius_Rex

How much is relatively?

False question. That alone shows me how worthless it is trying to explain to you.

@Solonius_Rex

How do you place price caps on things that are priced and controlled and changed by players?

Just makes it even more clear. The economy is plenty controlled by CCP. You know nothing.

[Solonius_Rex]

@Erick_Jakuard

False question. That alone shows me how worthless it is trying to explain to you.

Thanks for proving my point. You cant even propose a metric by which to scale the rewards by, and when asked about it, completely dodge it.

Garbage idea requires garbage defense.

@Erick_Jakuard

Just makes it even more clear. The economy is plenty controlled by CCP. You know nothing.

I set the price. Which means CCP is in control! Looks like you dont understand the market or basic economy, either.

Garbage brain requires garbage response.

Also, no response to how I decimated your stupid idea of safesec. Typical. All flash, no substance.

Next time you want to have a discussion, bring a friend to read what you wrote. You suck at it, and you need help.

[Erick_Jakuard]

@Solonius_Rex

Also, no response to

FYI I got banned and did not notice as I am not getting alerts through this character.

Just another thing you failed to see. You did not notice a different character is replying.

@Solonius_Rex

Your idea is bad.

Your reading comprehension skills, lack of imagination and desperation to sound relevant are the problems here, not my idea.

[Solonius_Rex]

@Erick_Jakuard

FYI I got banned and did not notice as I am not getting alerts through this character.

You responded to the rest of the post. Here, let me show you my entire post to you.

@Solonius_Rex

@Erick_Jakuard

I meant “relatively” profitable. Not zero.

How much is relatively?

@Erick_Jakuard

I am thinking of things like…price caps. I think I mentioned those before. You could sell your wares in totally safe space but the real profits would be where the prices are not capped…and that would be medium sec and beyond.

How do you place price caps on things that are priced and controlled and changed by players? You do know that there isnt a static, base price on the majority of items that are not seeded by NPCs, right?

@Erick_Jakuard

And BTW, new players and some others are not as ISK profit minded as you might imagine.

And yet if there is a common question asked by new players, it is always “How do I make ISK?”

@Erick_Jakuard

All people will have to do to play EVE as it is now is “undock” from my proposed high security area. What’s the fuss?

The fuss here is that youre going to introduce a stupid, meaningless and broken mechanic.

You arent the first person who proposed a “Safe” space where players can move and be active in complete safety. Problem is, any method of making isk will be exploited fully by more veteran players and new players will not stand a chance.

Guess what I see every time i enter 1.0 starter systems? Mackinaws sucking up Veldspar. Because its the safest, easiest place to do so.

The first thing new players will see is veteran players and bots populating these areas, sucking up all the resources and leaving nothing for them.

Your idea is bad.

Youre saying that you responded to “How much is relatively”, and “How do you place price caps”, but couldnt respond to, you know, the rest of the post, because… why? The ban made you blind and unable to see the rest of the post? The ban destroyed half your brain and you had an aneurism and your short term memory was affected?

@Erick_Jakuard

Just another thing you failed to see. You did not notice a different character is replying.

It doesnt matter to me, who is posting. What matters is the arguments and the content of the post.

I discuss the content, not the player.

@Erick_Jakuard

Your reading comprehension skills, lack of imagination and desperation to sound relevant are the problems here, not my idea.

Please, feel free to demonstrate. Otherwise, your response is merely a red herring.

Again, you suck at discussion. You should bow out now and concede, before you make yourself look like a complete idiot.

[Erick_Jakuard]

@Solonius_Rex

It doesnt matter to me, who is posting.

@Solonius_Rex

Also, no response to how I decimated your stupid idea of safesec.

Well if you are going to accuse Erick Jakuard of proposing Renly Rohan’s idea because you can’t be bothered with checking who is who, you will get confused about other things as well, and, you have.

You have managed to be douchey though and I think that was your real intent so …congrats?