I’m not saying that suicide ganking should be removed. I do, however, think it has far too weak a punishment/cost for what supposed to be an illegal activity. (Let us please not pretend like the loss of a T1 Cata is any form of significant cost.)
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Kill rights are only flawed within the context of repeated criminals who anyone can attack anyways because of their negative security status.
But those people are a minority. There are many other players in high sec space for who kill rights are a threatening consequence.
Calling kill rights a ‘flawed concept’ is like calling screws a flawed concept because they don’t work as well with your hammer.
They’re for a different purpose than the one you intend to use.
Kill rights aren’t meant to stop repeated criminals, that’s what the low security status is for. Kill rights are a great tool to stop people from occasionally but infrequently being a criminal. The ‘mostly’ honest folks. The people who are tempted to shoot that other miner who has been very annoying, if only the consequences weren’t there.
Losing some security status means very little to these people, they won’t get to 0 anyway with the amount of NPC killing they do, but a kill right is scary. These people won’t do a gank once a blue moon if that means they cannot do their mining or marauding that month safely. And for that purpose kill rights seem useful to me.
Don’t ignore other purposes just because of your tunnel vision, please.
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The true punishment to ganking should be boredom. I can’t help but notice you always ignore the counterplay to ganking, and seem to take it as a given that the gankers get their prey. If you are caught on grid, you did something wrong from the start.
This game is balanced to slightly favor offense. As I pointed out in a previous post it would become tedious if it was not. Why ignore the fact that the defense to ganking is to not be caught on grid?
Because leaving grid before their tackle lands doesn’t actually do anything to punish the gankers. Their tackle simply warps off, and starts looking for another target. They have an infinite number of retries until they land the killing tackle on their preferred target.
Again, I’m not saying that flawed means useless. I actually agree with what you’re saying, and there was no need to get slightly snippy at the end.
I’ve spent hours lurking outside Jita. Whilst you ‘think’ you know what goes on, I actually see it all. Most of the time, nothing happens at all. People scurry away and pretend Jita is sooo unsafe, but in reality hundreds of ships come and go without incident. And those tornadoes often lurk about for hours without doing anything. They often do not even fire at suspect targets. Its also the case that many of the kills outside Jita are from wardecs….not ganking.
If those tornadoes were only ever gankers, I wouldn’t safely sit there in a 500m ship that 3-4 of them could destroy.
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Yes, I share this view.
It shouldn’t be too hard to kill a catalyst with a cheap as possible T1 fit ship before Concord comes to their assistance. It definitely wouldn’t be about profit it would be more about showing gankers that waiting on gates even in Hi-sec is dangerous.
Lol….well people don’t have time or patience to read absolutely everything, so skim through posts looking for stock phrases. 99% of the time that works….but there’s always the odd time when things get misconstrued.
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The fix is easy…ban all highsec gankers and all of their accounts first crime for 14 days, after that for 3 months. And don’t allow them to make new accounts.
I was being a wee bit sarcastic as well. Mostly my fault.
I agree with your proposal, as ganking is a serious crime. However, I question whether it will be possible to stop gankers from making new accounts, unless we take more direct action. I propose 25 years incarceration in a facility without internet access. If they persist, we will have to take more extreme measures!
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Being made to watch all 8,665 episodes of Home & Away would be the extreme-est measure I could think of.
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Most of the discussion around highsec ganking focuses on DPS math and fitting choices. That part has been debated endlessly.
The more interesting issue is structural.
In most areas of EVE, conflict escalates.
Nullsec wars escalate.
Lowsec fights escalate.
Wormhole evictions escalate.
Highsec suicide ganking does not escalate.
The aggressor chooses the time, place, and target. The engagement is pre-calculated. CONCORD guarantees a fixed end point. The attacker loses a disposable hull. The defender loses the objective.
Then it resets.
There is no meaningful post-engagement vulnerability window. Kill rights are trivial. Wardecs rarely apply. There is no sustained exposure that allows reciprocal pressure.
So the question is not whether “counterplay exists.” Of course mitigation exists.
The question is whether there is meaningful reciprocity.
Risk versus reward is one discussion.
Reciprocity versus insulation is another.
Highsec ganking is efficient because it is insulated. It resolves instantly and does not create prolonged strategic consequences.
That is the part worth discussing.
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You constantly ignore the obvious answer of not being on grid. Is this because you are unable to use the cloak\mwd trick? If you don’t know how to dscan, there are many great you tube videos that explain it (I recommend an old one by “Blight’s Wretch”). If you always give up the initiative to the ganker then you are in for a problem. Please @Gasephed_Sinak, quit acting like there is no counter play to ganking. Just run away. Lear the tricks and run away. The long-term consequence for the hauler is they are still making a profit. The ganker does not. That is the reciprocal pressure. If you can get away you still make a profit, and they do not. The long-term consequence could be that the hauler, the miner, the mission runner makes a profit and the ganker does not.
For a pve player that should be the best kind of consequence.
Stop being greedy and trying to nerf other people’s gameplay @Gasephed_Sinak, just because it keeps you from running with full cargo expanders.
Your tyranny of rabbits is going to chase away players.
Avoidance is mitigation, not reciprocity.
Not being on grid, using cloak/MWD, d-scan, scouting, fitting tank, all of that is valid. I have never argued otherwise.
But avoidance is pre-engagement strategy. It does not create sustained interaction after a criminal act.
If I successfully avoid a gank, nothing changes for the aggressor. They reship and wait. Their model remains intact. That is not pressure. That is variance.
You say the hauler profits and the ganker does not. That only holds if the gank fails repeatedly. In practice, gankers target based on expected value. They are not randomly throwing ships away.
So again, the structural point is simple:
Highsec aggression resolves and resets.
There is no escalation loop.
There is no ongoing exposure beyond the disposable hull.
Mitigation is part of the design. It does not address whether the conflict loop is insulated.
Calling that a “nerf attempt” or “tyranny” avoids the design question.
If you believe avoidance alone is sufficient for long-term balance, explain why insulation is preferable to escalation.
That is the actual discussion.
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Quit spreading this philosophy of fear @Gasephed_Sinak, you’re driving away new players.
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Just say NO to the philosophy of fear and cowardice!
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https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Litany_Against_Fear
Origin
The phrase derives from William Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar: [citation needed 1]
Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once.
Of all the wonders that I yet have heard,
It seems to me most strange that men should fear,
Seeing that death, a necessary end,
Will come when it will come.[1]An ancient form of the litany existed already during the Butlerian Jihad. A mantra of the City of Introspection went like this:
“I have no fear, for fear is the little death that kills me over and over. Without fear, I die but once.”
The version of the litany used in the time of Paul Muad’dib was believed to have originated with the Bene Gesserit, who themselves faced great dangers during their extensive training.
Content of the Litany
The Litany is as follows:
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”Jessica later recites a version of the Litany which differs in its final lines:
“And when it has gone past me I will turn to see fear’s path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”
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My God…you really are desperately scraping the barrel for things to whine about, and new ways to present the same old whine. Just pointless sophistry…endlessly trying to ‘reframe the discussion’ because your previous ‘reframe’ was shown up for the BS it always is.
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If anybody wants to escalate Highsec ganking, send me isk.
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