CSM 12 Summit 1: Minutes Discussion


(Gian Bal) #122

Really? I dont remember seeing you in the warzone at all, in fact the only CVA guy playing in the warzone I saw was Dalamar Shimaya, apart from him i didnt see any groups of CVA actively contributing to the fight (When i say this I mean actually getting in fleet with other militia dudes to plex systems and do the ihub bash etc.)

Literally 2-3 people (at a push) from CVA actively contributed to these pushes, I know this because I was the one FC’ing the majority of said fleets -_-

(Jin'taan) #123

I helped kill exactly 1 iHub, but it is something we actively participated in when we deployed to Choonka for 2-3 weeks before heading back to F-Y as it was clear our members didn’t enjoy it as much as the FC team did. In general we stayed in for our solo PvPers, as we wanted to help contribute whilst having fun. Beyond that I’ve been in multiple fleets in the area, I just enjoy the solo gameplay more as I can get the gang warfare in the space I actually own.

Besides this, is there anything you would like to add to the conversation on “Rabbit”/Stabbed farming and whether or not it is something that’s good/bad for FW as a PvP ecosystem?

(Buoytender Bob) #124

I’ve been able to maintain a positive standing with all four factions for quite some time, but only after digging out from the huge hole I put myself due to not thinking of the longterm. Currently I have to juggle missions very carefully so I maintain my standings as they are now, most storyline missions are turned down because even fighting pirates causes a loss with some faction.

However, if the game offered some sort of perk like ships,modules,skins,etc. that could only be received through agents and their missions after you had reached a very high standing with them (8+ ?), we’ll then I might be tempted to tank some other standings. Make the ships/stuff be bound to the character to prevent farming and the mechanic might be part of a possible solution. As it currently is for me, all 4 main faction LP stores remain open for business and there is no incentive to risk the status quo.

(Jeremiah Saken) #125

I was watching video about new refineries, quite cool, I hope it will cause some confilcts in null, at least I see the opportunities there.
How many types of citadels will come in the future?
Is there a chance for small citadel that will merge all bigger ones function?
Having few structures to maintain as solo or small group of players would not be fun (small ones should have weaker bonuses ofc).

(Inaer) #126

Sorry to dig up the horse but if CCP needs ISK sinks, seems to me like a stock market would be a good fit here.

(Jin'taan) #127

How would a stock market function as an ISK sink?

(Inaer) #128

I will admit I am a bit biased here since it is something I want anyway.

If you are familiar with RL stock market each trade has a broker fee itself. I’m not sure how efficient the fees are in the regular market at draining isk but adding a parallel market with these fee’s is the answer to your question.

By adding a stock market you would open up a whole new side of corp gameplay, it would complete an incomplete game feature and it would be accessible and attractive to old and new players.

(Keiku) #129

Enough with racial bollocks already. It might have looked like something worth building on back in early naughties and to be honest CCP didn’t have many examples of mess every 2+ sides MMO has run into. You have two sides and possibly neutrals and all out war or you let playerbase dictate conflict narrative.

One could almost argue IRL we, today, 2017, can barely define our world as state driven yet here we are in a game two thousand a-lot and somebody is trying to sell us empires! While there’s Gallente ship builders setting shops in The Forge. That’s like Российская самолетостроительная корпорация opening factory in Pennsylvania.

Every now and then there seems to be somebody at CCP trying to resurrect this relic and make something out of it. Nostalgia or just lack of fresh ideas? FW was shot in the dark and it went worse from there. Are you promoting racism at worst and isolationism at best? For a very long time like 40%+ new players were Caldari. Why? Now it seems to be Gallente decade. Again why? Did Caldari lore suddenly become far less appealing and have Gallente start sneaking free booze into cloning facilities? Of course there are people out there that will swear an oath to their ruler and all that. How many?

And how many times will you have to realize that theming sandbox doesn’t work before you give up on this empire nonsense? Anybody remember Ethnic Relations skill? There’s plenty of ‘empires’ out in nullsec that are killing the game. Take a hint what flocking does.

(Jin'taan) #130

The question is, how do you make a Stock Market that loses more in fees than it inputs with rewards, without having it be something no-one wants to play, or a ForEx machine for EVE assets/ISK?

(Tipa Riot) #131

Corps in EvE have a variety of purposes not only profit like in the real world, actually mostly non-profit. A stock market would not make much sense. Corps in EvE =/= Corps in RL.

(Inaer) #132

Perhaps that is because the sandbox doesn’t give us the tools to do otherwise?

(Inaer) #133

Maybe my thinking is flawed here since I am not an economics person. But my take on it that that there are no new faucets in a stock exchange, the challenge to the isk issue is getting players to spend what they have more frequently and losing a bit to fees each time.

(Tipa Riot) #134

You could introduce a stock market but it would be a very niche thing, and imbalanced, vulnerable to scams, as you can fulfill your own speculations.

In general obvious ISK sinks are bad, because you feel bad paying excessive fees (2.5% to setup an order … this is troll level), or you know you are milked because of ISK sink (structure BPOs).

In contrast LPs for example are a nice ISK sink, because they are not obvious, and half made of market-PvP.

IMO the focus should more on reducing blatant ISK faucets, keep those at a low level for newbies, but reduce the amount for higher level play towards loot (neutral) and LP (ISK sink).

(Gian Bal) #135

I really don’t like stabbed plexers, people who plex with nothing but stabs are clearly just wanting to farm LP and have no actual interested in fighting other players, however there is a fine line between a rabbit plexer and a stabbed farmer. Rabbit plexing seems to be something more newbros do to try to help out the militia effort but without dying over and over because at the moment in the amarr/minmatar warzone 99% of the time a newbro will lose a 1v1 vs virtually anyone that comes into his plex with a t2 fit frigate. I’ve personally found that even when I fly a t1 fitted frig (I have max skills and I’m a very good pvper) it is an extremely tough challenge to compete with other people in the area who are usually pretty competent and in t2 fits. This is why most newbros tend to run from engagements because they simply cant compete and don’t get anything from actually staying inside the plex and dying in the fight. I personally teach all of the newbros I recruit to stay and fight because I provide them with unlimited free t1 frigs/destroyers to pvp in.

Anyways take the amarr/minmatar warzone right now, I can lead a fleet and get a systems contestation level up by like 30% in a day but all it takes it takes to get that back down is like 3 or 4 stabbed minmatar dudes semi-afk plexing overnight. This is something that needs to be addressed because 12 hours of work done by like 10-15 guys who are actively participating in pvp and looking to actually pvp while plexing shouldnt have all of their work roled back by 4 or 5 dudes just semi-afk plexing in the system overnight when less people are on. I don’t support the idea of the plex timer rollback because as has already been said in this thread, even if a rabbit plexer (usually a newbro) does stay in a plex to take a fight, hes likely to lose anyway and the plex timer will count down anyway, so instead of warping out and having the timer go down hes now lost his ship and the timer is going down aswell.

I’ve always been a supporter of having it so when you start capturing a plex with warp stabilisers fitted, the plex capture rate multiplier should decrease.

So take a novice for example where the multiplier is 1x at 10minutes:

Each stab a ship has fitted will decrease the timer multiplier by 0.1x, stacking upto 0.5x. So each stabilizer adds another minute to the total capture time.

However if you really wanted to do the timer rollback, then you need to actually look at the engagement in the plex and how it should effect the person running it, because at the end of the day, if you are taking a fight in a plex you’re likely to lose because you want to run it down asap, there needs to be a feature in place to actually reward you for taking the fight rather than running.

My proposal for this:

A = Amarr Player
M = Minmatar Player
P = Pirate Player

A is sitting there in his novice plex with a tech 1 fitted executioner, with 5 minutes left on the capture when suddenly P appears on scan with a daredevil. A decides to take the fight and P comes in and as expected kills him. However, as P kills A, the complex essentially analyses both players and realises that A is FW and attempted to defend the plex, whereas P attacked the plex and isn’t FW. So the plex now goes into almost like a frozen state for lets say 2 minutes (obviously this timer could be tweaked). But in this 2 minutes the plex timer remains the same, if A comes back within the 2 minutes then the plex continues ticking down from where it was left.

However, if A doesnt come back within the 2 minutes, and someone from the opposing militia doesn’t go in to start capturing it, the plex then starts ticking down to neutral again.

However, in this scenario, the defend is A but the aggressor is M, the same happens and A is defeated by M and the complex again analyses both players and realises the players are of opposing factions so the plex starts to get captured by M, however because A actually stayed and fought, he gets a small amount of LP (Unsure on exact amount).

This way, people are actually encouraged to fight, and if they lose to a pirate then they can just reship and continue plexing from where they left off and everyones content, and if they lose it to the opposing militia then they’ve lost the plex however because they stayed and fought they got a little LP out of it.

But honestly if CSM wants to talk about changing FW and adding new mechanics etc. maybe actually consult a few players who have actually spent years of playtime in FW, maybe even make one of your focus groups if you’re genuinely wanting to do something to help out FW.

And lastly, massive yes to decreasing the standing hit of being in FW, I’ve literally lost about 6 or 7 recruits in the last 2 months because they didn’t want to mess up their standings to join FW.

(Inaer) #136

I disagree about a couple of things and your probably right about LP but I don’t know enough about that anyway. I also don’t think of a stock market as being a blatant sink but I suppose that’s an opinion anyway.

  • I don’t see why it would be niche to buy a few shares from a corp doing well that pays dividends or getting to vote on corp matters.

  • Why would it be imbalanced? You don’t just throw in a new game feature without doing a bit of planning, research and testing.

  • I don’t see it, but everything in eve is vulnerable to scams.

In general obvious ISK sinks are bad, because you feel bad paying excessive fees (2.5% to setup an order … this is troll level), or you know you are milked because of ISK sink (structure BPOs).

The problem I have with your reply is that is seems like your just making up reasons it won’t work and saying look at these things that we couldn’t possibly account for!

  • There’s no reason each order cant be a flat rate.

(Tipa Riot) #137

In real life you have rules for corporations and traders who want to participate in the stock market, and the stock market / government authorities enforce these rules … in EvE neither rules exist (not to confuse with mechanics / technical vehicles of the game engine) nor can something be enforced.

If you want a stock market, you need a trusted third party, and there are a couple of examples where this is actually done. But it’s a niche thing.

(Yiole Gionglao) #138

LOL any serious mission runner will eventually meet the dreary 9.99 status bug. Once you reach top standings with an agent, it keeps calculating your effective standing, but after 9.99 comes back to zero and keeps calculating from there. That is, if you have 9.99, and you get +2 effective, it calculates it as 0.01 until 0 standing, and then 0+1.99 = 1.99 effective standing for the purpose of mission assignation and rewards. So suddenly you start getting piss poor rewards and godawuful missions even as your agent standing is maximum; and the only solution is to lower your agent standing by rejecting 3 or 4 missions in a row so you can grind top missions and rewards from 9.00 to 9.98.

(Erebus 'TheChin' Sundance) #139

hmm, that has not happened in my case, I have a selection of agents at 10, the bar at the top shows 9.99 but the agents are listed at 10.0. I still get full rewards.

(Yiole Gionglao) #140

Maybe CCP changed it, it’s been maybe 3 years since the last time I ran a mission. Trust me it wasn’t easy to miss since suddenly you would just start getting bad missions with the minimal reward even as your agent standing was perfect.

(Buoytender Bob) #141

Lol, … What we are talking about is your faction standing… You can easily get a standing to up around 6 to7 and keep your standings with the opposing factions still positive. Above that number (8 or so) and you start driving your faction rep for the opposing side down into the negatives. The balancing act needed is fine with moderate positive standing, but not doable (afaik) above a certain number. By forcing a player above a certain faction standing to obtain special rewards, you force them to commit to negative standings with other factions.