Most people here want nullbear space to be much less safe, not even safer.
We should be looking at how to take the ideas to make that happen.
Could be.
My reading of the proposal however suggests its going to be either a service module on existing Citadels, or its own class of Upwell structure with its own service modules.
I dont see how this would be realised in practice.
Its a trivial matter to guard/watch the structure, and youâd have to get to it first to hack it.
Also, why hack it, when you can instead destroy it.
In either case Id say it would be almost impossible to engage the OA without the enemy knowing its being compromised.
Its universal.
Trying to frontally assault and hold a prepared enemy position requires you have more force than the defender (at least 3 times to even consider it). Its a simple numbers thing. Has nothing to do with caring for the lives of your forces, has to do with having enough force to overwhelm the enemy and achieve the objective.
Special, no.
Trained, yes.
Also, telling a 37yr old man to âgrow upââŚ
There is going to be a guard on it in every system? Yeah sure.
If you destroy it then the owner would realize it is down. Hacking it would keep them unaware that it has been compromised.
Kind of depends on a number of factors like will the OA be its own structure. How big will it be/how easy will it be to find? Will it have a network effect, etc.
Why go through what will more than likely be 3 timers when you can just disrupt it with hacking? I canât imagine why a small roaming gang wouldnât want to just âdestroy it.â Weâre talking about a short disruption of intel for small gang, not a complete blackout for invasion purposes here.
With that in mind, engaging the OA in combat youâre likely correct and it should signal the owners just as any attack on a sov structure currently does. However, when it comes to hacking them Iâd see no reason for CCP to give any warning outside of a failed attempt.
You say itâs a trivial matter to watch a structure, but I donât know anyone to do that day in and day out just to prevent them from being hacked. Flying by when you log on to check if itâs operating maybe, but never a constant vigil. I used to do that with towers to check ammo levels back when I had a few alts in WH space because a common strategy was to make your POS blow all itâs ammo prior to hitting it, but thatâs as close a comparison as I can make to this.
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Why not? Anyways, gate watching/pipe intel is sufficient to detect an interloper.
Or just d-scan it regularly to check if anything has de-cloaked near it to hack it. Park probes around it.
With Local as it is currently, its a trivial matter to send someone to watch the OA when a non-blue enters the system and appears in Local.
Its not a big deal to leave a single alt near the OA while Locals rat/mine.
That would require reaching and hacking the OA undetected.
And who would benefit from the hack?
If Im a solo hacker, then just me?
If Im part of an enemy corp, all by buddies?
Per my reading, it will be a service module for existing Citadels, or a separate Upwell structure with its own intel specific service module slots.
As to ease of detection, it would be counter-productive for it to be hard to detect. Just makes aggressors job harder in a system where Locals already benefit from the effect of the OA.
What do you mean by network effect?
No, you are talking about removing an additional intel effect, that does not atm exist.
In other words youâve raised the threshold an aggressor has to overcome, inorder to achieve the same intel situation as now exists nominally.
As I responded to Teckos, watching gates, Local intel as it is now, park probes there, periodically d-scanning the vicinity of the OA etc will tell you when the OA is at risk of being hacked.
Nor is it a big deal to leave a single alt near the OA, while the rest of Locals mine/rat.
Can even pay him to do it. Plenty of noobs that will take the job to earn isk just for watching the OA.
Plus until the OA is hacked, it will be impairing your intel as an aggressor, making your job harder to begin with.
To the OP, first of all it is âaffectedâ not âeffectedâ and secondly local has not, is not, and will never be an official Intel tool. Just because players use it that way does not mean itâs a sanctioned way to use it. It is intended for chatting. There are two reasons local in K space should never go delayed A) it acknowledges finally once and for all that it is first and foremost a tool for gathering Intel and not as a tool for social interaction. In truth it is NOT an Intel tool, that is just an unexpected byproduct of the feature, itâs primary goal is to promote social interaction and gameplay which leads me to my second reason. B) delaying local encourages people to NOT talk in it in order to maintain the illusion of controlling knowledge of their presence in local. At that point you have taken a tool, which has a primary function of social interaction, and pretty much discouraged social interaction. It is kind of a double edged sword local can be technically used for social or Intel purposes but for the major of space itâs primary function must remain social and not Intel. That being said I have no issue with sov space being able to manipulate that because in those areas of space social interaction isnât as high a priority in local chat because of already established chats for the population in that area, but for npc space, low, and high sec it must remain as is, immediate
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âThe channel header/tab will display the number of EVE players for channels in immediate mode (since Local Chat is an important intelligence tool), but displays the combined character count for channels in delayed mode.â
https://www.eveonline.com/article/chat-changes/
No, its an official intel tool, as bolded above.
Chat functions a a social tool in delayed mode too.
What is at issue here, is its use as intel, in immediate mode.
PS: Please parse your brick text, rather than worrying about the definitions of âaffectingâ vs âeffectingâ.
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dead right, but if the fecker isnât afk then it is a threat, so how to know if itâs really an afk cloaker or just a cloaker sitting waiting, stalking. 
i think itâs been talked to death and beaten backwards a few thousand times. the fact still remains, no in game mechanical counter, which is lame and doesnât add to game play.
it is what it is and isnât that hard to deal with, just thought it was fair to mention the above.
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Iâm for d-scan detecting cloaked ships.
(Note: Detect, not break cloak)
In practice wont help at all in engaging a cloaked ship, but at least you will know if its there breathing right down your neck.
Ive never been a fan of d-scan immunity on cloaked ships.
Its more than enough equity that they are untargettable.
And yes, I mean that to apply to J-space too.
I fly a great deal of cloaked ships, but am more than happy to accept being detectable on d-scan. I can still d-scan AND probe while cloaked, am essentially unengageable, as well as can transit wherever I want while cloaked.
I really dont need to be d-scan immune, on top of all that.
If a ratter/miner/explorer has the sense to d-scan while Im approaching cloaked to engage them, Iâm fine with them knowing Iâm there.
Id also be ok with combat probes of sufficient power/skills allowing warp to target at 10km, arriving in a random location on the perimeter of a 10km radius sphere around it. It wont decloak the ship defacto , but you have a chance to try and de-cloak it by flying within 2km of it.
At that point you can use d-scan to ascertain its likely location inside that 10km sphere, in relation to you.
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When responding via a mobile device parsing brick text is irrelevant as the format is not the same as a PC screen, worry more about the issues and less about the actual response formatâŚ
What? Have you read anything Iâve written? I never mentioned any additional effects outside of possible intel scrambling which has always been an infallible hunter tool that has itself needed counter play since it was added. As a trade off local can be placed on a loop for a short time if hacked which could allow you to sneak in a gang undetected if you so decided to take the time. So I guess if you have no concept of balance I guess that seems like a one sided deal.
Yes, these things can be done, but they can be done now as well and not many people actually do this. However, unless you actually have eyes on the OA you wouldnât know it was being hacked, you would assume it was causing you to possibly respond or halt your current activities to handle the situation.
Itâs not a big deal to those of us with enough alts to spare or care enough to keep a constant eye on it (which I expect to be a pretty low number). You may as well say that the lack of local in WH space is completely nullified because you can leave an alt on a wormhole for perfect intel on those present in your space just by listening for the entry/exit sound. Not everyone in WH space even does this, those that are willing get a slight advantage but are far from perfectly safe or certain as to who could be lurking.
This last point⌠you do realize this is why delayed or removal of local was a stupid suggestion to begin with correct? But thatâs why having a forward scout that can put it on loop is beneficial to the hunting party itself. That scout knows whoâs around and if they do their job right, where they possibly are. There are many players out there who will not stop what theyâre doing if all they think is coming their way is a single -insert non cov-op ship here-. You wonât catch everyone and people will eventually adapt, thatâs natural, but thatâs hardly a reason to not do anything to stir the pot occasionally from a dev standpoint. As long as what youâre doing is balanced and not a random knee jerk reaction to a shifting meta.
I posted a fairly full remake including this sort of thing in post #375. Didnât get any feedback.
If they would ever delay the local or remove it from null. First thing they should do aswell is to remove blops. It would get way too easy to drop people with delayed local with the current mechanics
Blops cynos could merely always appear on D scan or even Overview.
There should be a delay anyway.
You are assuming the OA does not replace localâi.e. local goes delayed like in w-space. The OA plus local would be wildly OP.
In every system? Yeah Iâm not convinced. There will likely be lots of free riding.
Or just being undetectable after a successful hacking attempt. Is local being watched in every system in NS currently? No. Even if people are there they arenât staring at it all the time. You just need that small window.
I would like to see something where a list can be added to the OA. The length and the duration of any benefits are details that would need to be figured out, of course.
Per your reading of what? I have seen nothing indicating this.
I would hope the OA would be a stand alone structure and that can be disabled/destroyed with some degree of ease. The idea being, get out there and protect it or be blind.
It also means hostile OAs could be dropped in your systems. If they have to be probed downâŚ
That if you have OAs in several systems in say a constellation it will let you have some intel at the constellation levelâŚif you fit it this way. I like the idea that the OA can do different things, but that the fitting options means you have to make choicesâŚface trade offs.
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That would be stupidly overpowered.
Again, the idea is not to make nullbear space even safer.
well yes, that could work i guess, but as most know the afk cloaking tactic is also psychological warfare, itâs effect on a given target and the raection expected from that target, people wonât like losing that tool from their tool box, but like you said you fly cloaked ships and wouldnât have an issue with this, iâd be the same as i also like to fly them and couldnât see this as anything but a positive move on making it that bit more interesting and engaging. iâd be more on the side of it being a dedicated ship line and mudules that can detect cloaked ships.
there are many ships now that are d-scan immune without cloaks active so yea, a ship that can do it and modules plus skills and ya have a whole new aspect to cloaking both as an agressor and defender.
We already have it to some extent, and region wide, with intel channels. And it depends on what the trade offs are. For example, maybe you can see stuff at the constellation level, but there is less visibility at the system level.